Seven Vial Judgments vs Seven Trumpets: Compare & Contrast

The seven trumpets and seven vial judgments are a topic of much speculation. Some posit that the seven trumpets and the seven vial judgments are essentially the same events. The theory can be described as the following: “The seven trumpets and the seven vial judgments describe the same events, but from different perspectives.” I will evaluate this theory as I compare and contrast the seven trumpets and the seven vial judgments in this article.

Seven Trumpets vs Seven Vial Judgments Video

1st Trumpet & 1st Vial Judgment

The first trumpet and first vial judgment both impact the earth.

Revelation 8:7 (1st Trumpet): The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.
Revelation 16:1-2 (1st Vial Judgment): (1) And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth. (2) And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

I do not have a major issue with the theory here. The only issue is that the Revelation 8:7 focuses on the impact of the judgment on plant life while Revelation 16:2 focuses on the impact of the vial judgment on human life, but the theory accounts for this.

2nd Trumpet & 2nd Vial Judgment

The second trumpet and the second vial judgment both impact the sea by turning it into blood:

Revelation 8:8-9 (2nd Trumpet): (8) And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; (9) And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.
Revelation 16:3 (2nd Vial Judgment):And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

The main issue I have equating the second trumpet with the second vial judgment is that there is a huge difference in magnitude between the impact of the second trumpet and the impact of the second vial judgment. 1/3 of the sea life dies from the sounding of the second trumpet, but all sea life dies following the pouring of the second vial judgment.

3rd Trumpet & 3rd Vial Judgment

The third trumpet and the third vial judgment both impact fresh water sources (fountains of waters and rivers):

Revelation 8:10-11 (3rd Trumpet): (10) And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; (11) And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.
Revelation 16:4-7 (3rd Vial Judgment): (4) And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood. (5) And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus. (6) For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy. (7) And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.

The main issue I have equating the third trumpet with the third vial judgment is that it is hard for me to imagine most people electing to drink water that resembles blood because most people would surmise by examining the water’s odd color that the water is probably contaminated. I imagine the people drinking the wormwood water after the sounding of the third trumpet probably will be unaware that the water is unsafe to drink.

4th Trumpet & 4th Vial Judgment

The fourth trumpet and the fourth vial judgment both impact the sun.

Revelation 8:12-13 (4th Trumpet): (12) And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise. (13) And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!
Revelation 16:8-9 (4th Vial Judgment): (8) And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire. (9) And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

I do not have a major issue with the theory here. Revelation 16 does not mention that the moon, the stars, and daylight were impacted by the fourth vial judgment, but that could be due to Revelation 16’s focus on how the sun will impact people.

5th Trumpet & 5th Vial Judgment

The fifth trumpet and the fifth vial judgment describe darkness overtaking the sky and people experiencing a lot of pain.

Revelation 9:1-12 (5th Trumpet): (1) And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. (2) And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. (3) And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. (4) And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. (5) And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man. (6) And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them…(10) And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months…(12) One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.
Revelation 16:10-11 (5th Vial Judgment): (10) And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain, (11) And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

I do not have a major issue with the theory here. As mentioned above, the fifth trumpet and the fifth vial judgment describe a dark planet and people in agony. Revelation 9:6 tells us that people won’t die from the locust plague while Revelation 16:11 emphasizes that people will be in pain (and does not mention that people are dying). However, an implication of equating the fifth trumpet with the fifth vial judgment is that the fifth vial judgment would have to last for five months since the fifth trumpet events will last for five months (Revelation 9:10).

6th Trumpet & 6th Vial Judgment

The sixth trumpet and the sixth vial judgment both involve the Euphrates River and describe the movement of troops.

Revelation 9:13-21 (6th Trumpet): (13) And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, (14) Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates. (15) And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men. (16) And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them. (17) And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone. (18) By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths. (19) For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt. (20) And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: (21) Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.
Revelation 16:12-16 (6th Vial Judgment): (12) And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. (13) And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. (14) For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. (15) Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. (16) And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

One major issue I have equating the sixth trumpet with the sixth vial judgment is that the spiritual beings responsible for rallying troops in each event are different in at least terms of quantity and origin. The four angels unleashed from the Euphrates River appear to be responsible for rallying 200 million troops while three unclean spirits from the mouths of the beast, false prophet, and the dragon are responsible for convincing people to assemble at Armageddon.

Another issue is that it is hard to imagine 1/3 of the world’s population dying in the effort to assemble the largest military force possible for the war of Armageddon. I imagine that the Antichrist, False Prophet, and Satan would want to minimize casualties as they work to assemble as many people as possible for combat since they will be involved in the ultimate confrontation between good and evil.

7th Trumpet & 7th Vial Judgment

The seventh trumpet and the seventh vial judgment both describe voices, lightning, thundering, an earthquake, and a great plague of hailstones.

Revelation 11:15-19 (7th Trumpet): (15) And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. (16) And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, (17) Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. (18) And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. (19) And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
Revelation 16:17-21 (7th Vial Judgment): (17) And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. (18) And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. (19) And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. (20) And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. (21) And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

I do not have a major issue with the theory here. There are many parallels between the passage describing the events following the sounding of the seventh trumpet and the passage describing the pouring of the seventh vial judgment.

My Overall Thoughts

Overall, there are a lot of similarities between the trumpet events and the vial judgments. However, there are some areas where the trumpet events and the vial judgments are quite different. For instance, the second trumpet and the second vial judgment are different in terms of magnitude while the sixth trumpet and sixth vial judgment are different in terms of the spiritual beings involved. In addition, the vial judgments are more severe than the trumpet events, particularly the second vial judgment.

Therefore, I do not believe the trumpet events and vial judgments describe the same events in totality because there are some major differences in some of the judgments which lead me to believe that the events occur separately, particularly the second trumpet & second vial judgment, the third trumpet & third vial judgment, and the sixth trumpet & sixth vial judgment. However, I believe it is possible that Revelation 11:15-19 and Revelation 16:17-21 describe the same type of events because of the strong parallel between the two passages.

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Wayne Croley
Wayne Croley

Hi! I’ve studied and written about Bible prophecy since I was a teenager. My goal is to make Bible prophecy easy for you to understand while avoiding the sensationalism seen elsewhere. I am the author of Prophecy Proof Insights on the End Times, a comprehensive book about the end times. I hold an M.B.A. and degrees in Managerial Economics and Political Science.

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  1. Great job bro…Yes both are the same judgments that are going to pour on earth during the Tribulation period. But mentioned in a different view points i guess (probably Jewish viewpoint & in the point of view of the Church). Rev 10:11 ” And he said unto me, —“Thou must prophesy again”. Thanks again for this great comparison. God bless you…

  2. Great article! I believe that the trumpets and vial judgments 1 thru 6 occur between the 5th and 6th seal. The 6th – 7th seal, 7th trumpet and 7th vial describes His second coming.

  3. hie Wayne ..i have already sent you quite a bunch of trumpet exposition

    i like your comparison of trumpets and plagues……brilliant stuff again!…..we definitely should meet even though i am across the other side of the atlantic !

    let me surprise you Wayne….John writes to us in the book of revelation using the hebrew sanctuary themes…Christ is seen on the candlesticks in chapters 1-3
    Christ is seen on the table of showbread in chapter 5,6,7

    Christ is seen on the Altar of incense in chapters 8,9,10,11 too and guess what ….the 7 plagues come from the ark of the covenant!

    the book of revelation has seven churches,…seven seals…seven trumpets and seven plagues

    Psalm 77:13

    13 Thy way, O God, is in the sanctuary: who is so great a God as our God?

    the plan of salvation was unveiled in full in the sanctuary with symbols…..the altar of burnt offering was symbolic and prophetic …..
    Christ was portrayed in the altar of burnt offering as the ultimate sacrifice promised in genesis 3:15 the seed who was to crush the head of the serpent!
    and sure enough He was our Passover lamb!…His resurrection was shown on the laver!…for 1400 years the jews practised a daily sacrifice morning and evening pointing to the coming of Christ

    the time table of Christ s plan of salvation was shown in the hebrew 7 yearly feasts and Christ fulfilled them right on time!

    He was the passover lamb on that Friday 3pm death! He lay in the tomb on sabbath as the feast of unleavened bread…His body saw no corruption(His life had no leaven of sin)…on sunday morning He Rose as the first fruits from the dead! and by 9 am He waved Himself before the Father to fulfil the TRUE feast of first fruits 9(read what he meant when he said to mary don’t touch me for i have not seen my Father and the same day He was happy for Thomas to touch Him later!Christ went to heaven after resurrection (and after seeing Mary magdalen) and presented Himself as the first fruits from the dead to His Father!) the very same day the Jews on that sunday presented bundles of harvest as first fruits(no longer needed) in the temple where the huge curtain had been torn (showing these services on the earthly temple ceased Friday 3 pm!)…the Jews in failing to recognise Christ failed to see the fulfilment of prophecy in Him being the passover lamb!They failed to see the Christ as the first fruit from the dead!Christ shows us the spiritual meanings in all these hebrew feasts..it was not about first fruits in agricultural sense but in the salvation sense..God uses the visible things of nature to teach us spiritual things…those saints who were resurrected with Christ were the first fruits pointing to a larger harvest when Christ comes for the second time!

    50 days later the pentecost feast was fulfilled by the coming of the Holy Spirit!…ask your self the question …the bible was written and closed before the feast of trumpets was fulfilled which announced the day of atonement …after the day of atonement comes the feast of terbanacles…….Guess what! John shows us Christ s ministry after his death!and resurrection and ascension…..You will see the feast of pentecost in revelation 5, the day of atonement in revelation 11:19, and you will see the feast of terbanacles in revelation 7 :9!
    John (and daniel too)show us the ministry of Christ in heaven…you will see these details in full

    is there another sanctuary in heaven?…….answer Hebrews 8…The High Priest of a New Covenant
    8 Now the main point of what we are saying is this: We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, 2 and who serves in the sanctuary, the true tabernacle set up by the Lord, not by a mere human being……YES there is a sanctuary in heaven!! and christ is the mediator of the new Covenant as High Priest….read 1 chronicles 24 and you will see that 24 ordinary priests were on duty assisting the hIGH pRIEST…READ REVELATION 4 and you will 24 elders who later will be presenting bowls of incense …..ask your self the question who is the 25th person as the High Priest who arrives in revelation 5!!!!!? hint hint hint…read ezekiel 8 ..see the apostate sun worshipping 25 men(24 ordinary priests and their high priest) and you see the equivalent faithful 24 elders worshipping God and WAITING FOR The MISSING 25TH Person>>>whose personage is Christ

    So Christ ascended to heaven at day 40 and ten days later the feast of pentecost was fulfilled !cHRIST was inaugurated as the high priest of the new covenant in heaven!…..when earthly High priest Aaron was inaugurated as high priest he was anointed with oil re[resenting the Holy Spirit)…Christ of the order of Melchizedek gets us the THE HOLY SPIRIT….read revelation 5:6….as soon as Christ is inaugurated the HOLY SPIRIT WAS SENT TO THE EARTH(seven spirits of God is the perfect fullness of the Holy Spirit) and yet in revelation 4:5 the HOLY SPIRIT WAS STILL BEFORE THE FATHER BEFORE JESUS ARRIVED!…as soon AS cHRIST ARRIVES the position of the holy Spirit is shown in revelation 5:6…sent to earth!pentecost! right in front of our eyes but easily missed!

    Christ sits on the right hand of the father in chapter 5 revelation and starts to open the seven seals!
    Wayne,where is the throne in chapter 4 and 5 of revelation!….read revelation 4:5….in front of the throne was the seven burning lamps!…where do we find the seven burning lamps in the sanctuary …in THE HOLY PLACE in the sanctuary ! THATS WHERE JESUS ASCENDED TO AND STARTED HIS MINISTRY IN THE HOLY PLACE….the throne was opposite the seven burning lamps…what furniture was opposite the seven bringing lamps ?it was the table of show bread…….God is using the “find my location’ app using the sanctuary themes and guess what ..the throne of God is in the HOLY PLACE ON THE TABLE OF SHOW BREAD WHEN JESUS IS OPENING THE SEALS!…..and as the seals are opening what runs out? BREAD!…..The throne will move into the Most Holy place later

    christ s ministry in the holy place will involve him standing on the candlesticks…seven churches……TABLE OF SHOWBREAD…..SEVEN SEALS……and this brings us to CHRIST S MINISTRY IN THE HOLY PLACE ON THE ALTAR OF INCENSE…..THE seven trumpets …..thE ark of thE covenant becomes visible when christ has finished work in the HOLY PLACE AND STARTS MINISTRY INTHE MOST HOLY APLCE IN REVELATION 11:19….When He finishes work in the Most Holy place in revelation 15:5-8 thats when the seven plagues will be poured out!seen in revelation 16 which is what Wayne has done a good job in pointing the differences between plagues and trumpets

    trumpets should be studied on context of revelation 8 and also old testament background ….in revelation 8 prayers of the saints reach the altar of incense where Christ is our mediator and then trumpets are sounded with effect on earth, sea,rivers,sun,moon,etc

    trumpets are answering the prayers of the saints!…….why? check why were trumpets blown in old testament?……i will major on this very important reason why trumpets were blown!……numbers 10 lays the ground WAYNE….8 “The sons of Aaron, the priests, are to blow the trumpets. This is to be a lasting ordinance for you and the generations to come. 9 When you go into battle in your own land against an enemy who is oppressing you, sound a blast on the trumpets. Then you will be remembered by the Lord your God and rescued from your enemies.

    purpose of blowing trumpets ?…….Then you will be remembered by the Lord your God and rescued from your enemies.!!!!!!
    who blows the trumpets during literal israel ?priests …who is blowing the trumpets in revelation ? 7 angels!!!

    lets dig further …..at Jericho The commander in chief of the heavenly armies came and gave Joshua a -remove -your -sandals experience and Joshua WORSHIPPED…hint hint angels refuse to be worshipped— Christ does not refuse to be worshipped!Joshua gets a war strategy …..based on numbers 10 again verse 8,9!

    but at Jericho we get our template of trumpets learning…….day 1 they march around once and blow the trumpet and rest day 2 day 3,4,5,6 PAUSE THERE? what do Rahabs relatives do in these six days?….they should be going to RAHABS HOUSE TO SEEK SHELTER!!!!trumpests are warning judgements sent to God s enemies who are persecuting God people and these 6 days at Jericho were warning shots…take shelter under Rahabs house!…where the red flag is!!!!

    Day seven was too late ..thats the day of destruction!trumpet 1-6 have mercy WAYNE!…Trumpet 7 ushers in the seven plagues !!!!!

    carefully study the trumpets and you will see that the severity increases as we near the end climaxing with seven plagues!

    before we dig into trumpets lets study briefly Gideon…..He blew trumpets and God remembered HIM and routed the enemies

    lets also study 2 chronicles 13…..there is a showdown between ABIJAH and Jeroboam and listen to how they remind Jeroboam how they will blow trumpets to seek God s help…this text is amazing and blew me to shreds!..2 chronicles 13…..We are observing the requirements of the Lord our God. But you have forsaken him. 12 God is with us; he is our leader. His priests with their trumpets will sound the battle cry against you. People of Israel, do not fight against the Lord, the God of your ancestors, for you will not succeed.”

    read the rest of the story and you will see how Jeroboam was defeated ……God remembered Judah and routed Jeroboam ……so trumpets were blown to seek God s help when the church was at war! being persecuted by enemies

    the focus of the seals and trumpets are in relation to God s church…the seven candle sticks!…..thats the main focus !…Christ s church and He says i am with you till the end !!!!!!!

    so trumpets take place from the time Christ took His place as our mediator in heaven on the altar of incense……this was from AD31 after ascension and after being inaugurated as our high Priest……until the close of probation

    the seventh trumpet definitely announces the close of probation !thanks Wayne i think you hinted it ….the seventh trumpet ushers in the seven plagues…..its the third woe….thus the seven plagues are the fullness of the seventh trumpet ……you wonder why so many verses on the 5th and sixth trumpet and then the the third woe…..one verse…read again ?…..the woes are lamentations …and their severity gets worse ending with seventh trumpet..

    so the first six trumpets are still with mercy……but the seventh trumpet mercy has closed and we get seven plagues…read Jericho again and see why the seven days march had seven marches on days 7 pointing to total destruction!

    so as observed by Wayne the trumpets are partial judgements ,the plagues are not mingled with mercy…..Its God s wrath in full

    …first trumpet is a judgement on trees and grass…find out which nation was represented by tree symbol who bore no fruits until God burnt it down…which nation persecuted God s people and crucified Christ and was represented by a fruitless leafy green fig tree…all related to the church during the early church called ephesus church on the seven churches list …remember to link the seven churches with trumpets ….dig into your heels “why the axe was already on the root” on that nation….dig further to realise that nation was partially judged for persecuting God s people but was not destroyed ….do you see why the thirds ,thirds thirds thirds etc

    The first plague is upon those who have rejected God s mercy and have the mark the the beast and the language is literal as it sounds ….sores….reminding us of egypt and pharaoh

    the second trumpet is a judgement on a mountain and its thrown into the sea… third a third a third a third is noticed too
    mountain is used to symbiloe a nation or kingdom…read jeremiah 51:25 which referred to Babylon as a destroying mountain and same lanagaueg is used in trumpet 2…John wants us tread jeremiah 51 all of it to understand the basis of the trumpet
    This mountain is throne into the sea….this empire is thrown among people nations and languages (sea revelation 17:15)…..this empire loses its wealth,(ships are simples of wealth),and its its involved in brutal war and people die(sea creatures ….remember i will make you fishers of man)…..this mountain seen falling and breaking into the sea was the fall of pagan Rome…..the second church period represented by Smyrna was the period the church suffered persecution by pagan Rome and God responded to the praying saints and judged pagan Rome and sent barbarians who ravaged Rome into pieces and its wealth and it broke up into 10 nations of Europe of western europe…can you see why a mountain is throne into the sea ?….the trumpets are mostly symbol language …..

    the second plague is the whole sea turning onto blood…..not a third….whole sea and its literal blood together with rivers turning into blood in third plague…leading to thirst !!!!!thirst!!!!…these last generation rejectors of mercy have killed God s people and God gives them blood to drink…..its there in the text of revelation 16
    the scorching of heat from the sun in 4th plague is literal and leads to death of all plants and joel saw it coming….Joel 1:18-20

    18 How the cattle moan!
    The herds mill about
    because they have no pasture;
    even the flocks of sheep are suffering.

    nothing to eat!

    the third trumpet can be located in history but i need more time to explain each symbol so is the fourth and fifth trumpet too

    WEA ARE CURRENTLY IN THE SIXTH Trumpet……

    we ARE ALSO IN THE SIXTH SEAL waiting for part two of sixth seal which is the glorious return of our lord JESUS christ

    we are also in the seventh last church called Laodecia……..

    We are on the brink of major prophetic events to happen hence i always look at what Wayne is studying too

    our differences are minor compared to the reaches of His glory that await us

    i have sen you a whole bunch of notes Wayne via email

    cheers

    Lovemore

  4. The Bowls Judgement, Armageddon, and Second Coming of Christ happened at the opening of the Sixth Seal. Compare Rev. 6 with Matthew 24, it resembles. Right after Rev. 6, the 144k and the multitudes followed which could mean this is resurrection and rapture event, the First Resurrection.
    What follows after the First Resurrection? Isn’t it the Millennium? If so, then the Seventh Seal is the Millennium, the half hour silence in heaven and the thousand years of peace on earth.
    Trumpet Judgement happens then at the very and of the Millennium. The Seventh Trumpet is the White Throne Judgement.

    • The seventh trumpet judgment declares that the ownership of the kingdoms of the world revert to God and Christ:

      “(15) And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. (16) And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, (17) Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.” (Revelation 11:15-17)

      Daniel 2 and 7 speak of a similar event when the kingdom of the Antichrist is about to be destroyed:

      “And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.” (Daniel 2:44)

      “(25) And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. (26) But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end. (27) And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.” (Daniel 7:25-27)

  5. I believe that the seven trumpets happen in the future EGW states “Solemn events before us are yet to transpire. Trumpet after trumpet is to be sounded; vial after vial poured out one after another upon the inhabitants of the earth.” Selected Messages 3:426 (1890). – {LDE 238.1}. This statement alone states that the seven trumpets are in the future but also you have this.

    Here are EGW remarks regarding chapter 11 being a dual chapter taken place in the past and to taking place in the future.
    “Let all who would understand the meaning of these things read the eleventh chapter of Revelation. Read every verse, and learn the things that are yet to take place in the cities. Read also the scenes portrayed in the eighteenth chapter of the same book.” {Lt158-1906.8}.

    This would mean the city of Babylon in chapter 18:21-24 correlates with chapter 11:13 and soon after the second coming of Jesus which is the seventh trumpet. Also, another clue that the seventh trumpet is the second coming of God in chapter 10:7; the mystery of God is only revealed when Jesus comes in the second coming. This would also agree with chapter 19 coming after chapter 18.

    Another thing to take into mind is this 11:14 says the third woe is coming quickly. I don’t believe that after the fall of the Ottman empire that Jesus is coming quickly after that because it didn’t even take place in the last days after 1844, so how could the third woe come quickly? But if you apply the second woe in the future as in the fall of the city of Babylon then the third woe does come quickly

  6. Hi Connie

    I don’t usually like to say anything nowadays as people always tend to resist or denounce what a say however because you have still got an open mind and want to know the truth I will try again.

    The rapture of the church clearly takes place at seal six as can be confirmed by Jesus teachings in Matt 24: I have said before that the trumpets represent the wrath of God and comes after the church is raptured.

    If you look carefully you will see that there are two groups of people that are killed. Firstly there are those killed at the 5th seal just before the rapture where there is no mention of the mark of the beast. This means they were killed before it was enforced. Later on during the trumpet judgments you will find another group that was killed for not accepting the mark of the beast Rev 15. This group was resurrected bodily when Jesus and the saints returned as stated in Rev:20 verse 4.

    It may also help to understand that the first resurrection is a period and not a one time event. It actually lasts for 1000 years.

    There are a lot of things going on during this period so you have to take your time and think it through and if you are not too rigid you will see things more clearer.

    • Robert, I have thought it through. Quite thoroughly for about four decades in fact. I began as a pre-trib, because that was what I had been taught. Then I believed for about a decade that the rapture was at the sixth seal, but there were things that still just didn’t reconcile with that, so I went back to God in prayer and went through all the O.T. scriptures, all the passages in the gospels and epistles, and then Revelation verse by verse . Finally I saw that when Paul said it was at the last trump, he was being quite literal.

      As for the resurrection lasting 1000 years, why would it have to? People are not going to die during the millennium unless they die as unbelievers. That is why the trees are for the healing of the nations and if a man dies at 100 he is cursed. If they do die, in that case, they are resurrected at the second one for the dead who did not die in faith.

      The fifth seal martyrs are told that they have to wait for a “little season” (short time)until the rest – not only their fellow servants, but their brethren (literally? same generation? because fellow servants would cover all other Christians of all other generations) of those who “are to be killed AS they were.” In my mind, that means that they are all a part of the same group – those who are beheaded for not taking the mark. We know that the fifth seal has to include those in the tribulation, because the sixth seal comes after the tribulation is over according to Matthew 24. But those on the sea of glass came OUT of the tribulation (has to be by death, since those who are raptured are not raptured during the tribulation, but sometime after the sixth seal.) They are not there because they were raptured, but because they were killed. They are the ones the fifth seal martyrs are told they have to wait for. They overcame the beast because they loved not their lives UNTO DEATH – Rev. 12:11. Those on the sea of glass are there out of the rapture, because they got VICTORY over the beast (he didn’t kill them) and were Philadelphians. They are the ones who are raptured at the Second Coming of Christ in Rev. 14. Notice that chapter 15 follows that gathering of the fruit of the vine in chapter 14 which is the same description of Christ’s coming as found in Matthew 24. On the clouds in the air. There is only one harvest, and it is in chapter 14. After the last trumpet has been sounded, when the time for the dead and prophets are to be rewarded (Bema Seat), Christ begins His reign, and God is about to pour out His wrath. Rev. 11:15-18.

      I am quite content after 40+ years of studying this that I finally can reconcile all the problem scriptures. You can reject what I say too. That’s your choice.

      • Hi Connie I am no way trying to dismiss your years of studies but unfortunately your conclusions are wrong. You have assumed falsely that the six seal is at the end of Daniel 70th week which is not the case. You have also assumed that the wrath of God comes at the end of Daniel 70th week which is also incorrect.

        The trumpets comes after the sixth seal. In fact they start at the seventh seal. These are what represent the wrath of God. What Paul said about the last trump has nothing to do with these trumpet judgements in revelation and believing this does not make you a pre-tribber. As long as you continue to believe this you eyes will be blinded to the real truth.:

        Revelation is very clear to me now so it is not a question of uncertainty or debate but just helping others to see the truth. The truth needs no defence and stands sure regardless of what we personally think or believe as.it will come to pass just has God intended.

        I am only trying to show you that your well meaning premise is flawed and need to be looked at again.

        The scripture explicitly tells us when the first resurrection finishes regardless of what you may think the reason for it is as we don’t know exactly what God will be doing during this period

        Rev 20: verse 5 tells us this.

        • Now you may say how is my reasoning and study flawed prove it to me and it’s simply this the trumpets mentioned by Paul are the resurrection/rapture trumpets which will only last a short time Revelation trumpets last Approx 3 1/2 years now does that make sense. No it doesn’t and that’s how you they are not the same

          • Robert, I do not think the sixth seal comes at the end of Daniel’s 70th week. It comes after the great tribulation which is cut short of the 42 months or 1260 days. How much short is an unknown, but it has to be more than 5 months before the end, for the 5th trumpet takes that long. When Paul spoke of the last trumpet when the rapture occurs, he spoke of the last trumpet. There is only one last trumpet, the 7th, which comes at the end of Daniel’s 70th week, when the two witnesses are resurrected after their 1260 days of witnessing. Then the vials are poured out in the 30 day period specified in Daniel 12 – (the 30 days from 1260 days to 1290 days after the abomination). You may think my reasoning is flawed if you wish. I see flaws in yours. I have no agenda to try to dissuade you. Believe what you want. As will I. I know, I’m a woman so I can’t possibly understand these things. It amazes me that in my wrong understanding I have found so many others who believe the same thing I do, after studying it on their own with just the Lord’s guidance as did I. Have you found that to be true of your belief? I have never heard anyone interpret it quite the way you do.

          • Connie I don’t know what being a woman has to do with understanding prophecy in fact I have found that women tend to understand prophecy more readily than men that’s why I thought you would understand more than most but I see that I was mistaken. Sometimes it take some people longer to understand things because of their mindset however whether you want to believe it or not you will see it with your own eyes as all these things will take place within the next 14 years. The days being shortened that Jesus mentioned was the earth’s current cycle of 365 1/4 days returning back to its original 360 day years. The rapture takes place around mid point of Daniel’s 70th week and Jesus returns at the end of Period with the saints from heaven so your theory do not account for this which is quite clear in Revelation 19. And indeed I have come across people who understand the bible like I do but afraid to express it because it’s not what the majority accepts but I never try to force anyone you either see it or you don’t God bless you and continue to keep the faith for he that shall come will come and will not tarry. Sabbath blessings to all

          • Robert, believe what you want about your interpretation and my “mindset”. Time will tell which of us, if either of us, is right. God bless.

    • I left something out of my comment (not sure if it appears above or below this) when I mentioned the group getting Victory, I was speaking of the second group on the sea of glass are the ones raptured, not the first group.

    • Robert,

      John the Apostle could have simply said that the Great Tribulation Saints are the last batch of the Dead in Christ for the First Resurrection(s)

      Pretribbers kept on claiming that the Mystery that Paul is talking about is the Secret Rapture. These are mere speculations.

      How can you say that this is speculation with regards to the timing of the resurrection and the rapture:

      Sixth Angel who holds the Sixth Bowl Judgement introduces the Bride

      Seventh Angel who holds the Seventh Bowls Judgement introduces the Great Whore/Babylon

      I hope you see the obvious logic here.

      Jesus when He was revealing to John the end times, these two angels did not accidentally just happened to pass by them and then were stopped by Jesus and were asked to introduce to John the Bride and the Great Whore.

      THE ANGELS WERE WITNESSES TO THAT EVENT IN THE BOWLS JUDGEMENT.

      • Robert,

        If we say the rapture will precede the resurrection and the time difference is 7 years, analyze this Scripture:

        1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

        16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout (shout of the Groom), with the voice of the archangel (Michael), and with the trump of God (Blessing of the Father/blowing of the shofar heralding the coming of the Groom to get his Bride): and the dead in Christ shall rise (resurrect) FIRST:

        17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up (raptured) TOGETHER with them (dead in Christ) in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we (The Raptured and the Resurrected) ever be with the Lord.

        I don’t want to be hanging there in the clouds for 7 years waiting for the Dead in Christ to rise up, if we mistook the order of events the other way around. Even Jesus will agree with me, because He still have something else to do (deal with the Great Whore afterwards).

        Unless we have two sets of Dead in Christ and Raptured in mind, and there is another scripture that tells about another rapture/ resurrection event, or another set of Wedding. This is just too much of a stretch and speculations.

        In Revelation 14, there are only two Harvest. First is the Harvest of the Barley and Wheat (144k/Righteous) in which Jesus himself did the harvesting. Second is the harvest of the grapes (wicked) in which an appointed angel for Wrath was tasked to do the harvesting.

        Here is one principle that I embraced when I have given up my Pre-tribulation Rapture View:

        Matthew 13:44-46
        44 “The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and covered up; then in his joy he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field. 45 “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant in search of fine pearls, 46 who, on finding one pearl of great value, went and sold all that he had and bought it.

        Several Years of studies is worth giving up for just a few scriptures that bears treasures of truth especially coming right from the words and testimony of our Lord Jesus Christ. (Matthew 24 & 25 and the Book of Revelation)

  7. Wayne, I want to share an idea that someone posted as a comment on one of my blog posts. He said that the seals, trumpets, and vials could find a comparison in the story of the Exodus. He equated the seals with Israel’s time of slavery in Egypt. The despotic “antichrist” pharoahs, the famine that brought them there to begin with, the persecution and death that was foisted upon them are all found in similarity in the seals. In looking at that idea, I saw the sixth seal as the prophesied signs of freedom from slavery to this world for us when Christ returns, just as Moses was the prophesied sign that they would soon have freedom from slavery from Egypt. In both cases though, before the freedom comes, there is something more to occur.

    In each case, the sign brings with it plagues. He equated the trumpets with the plagues (some are even similar in nature) in that the plagues were sent to try to bring repentance, but Pharaoh continued to not repent of his actions and God hardened his heart. This to me suddenly made sense about something which I hadn’t really understood. I was convinced that God’s wrath did not begin until the seventh trumpet, but I could find no reason for the Church to remain during the trumpets. Why were they even there?

    Just as Israel apparently had to endure the first three plagues before God drew the line and severed Egypt from Goshen, to protect Israel, so the first few trumpets affect everyone, but the fifth trumpet locusts are not to touch those who have the mark of God. And at the end of the sixth trumpet it is said that still the people would not repent of their actions. This statement would seem to indicate that the purpose of the trumpets was to give them time and a reason to repent. So while the tribulation is for the Church to be cleansed, it would seem that the trumpets are a time for those who are not Christians, but who haven’t taken the mark to have, as it were, a type of Days of Awe as is found between Rosh haShanah and Yom Kippur when people are given time to either get their names in the Book of Life or be sealed for God’s wrath. Now as we are talking mostly Jews here, and some Gentiles from every nation, it is not necessarily an accepting of Jesus as Savior, although some may do that, but of repentance toward God the Father. If they accepted Christ, they would be the Bride of Christ, and would be raptured, but many will not go that far. They will be the sheep that go into the millennium.

    When the seventh trumpet sounds, the Church is taken out of the way, just like Israel crossed the Red Sea, and God’s wrath falls on the world. Those who have repented of their actions (but have not accepted Christ before the rapture) now will have to survive God’s wrath, (go through the sea) but God will protect them, while the rest of the world suffers(Pharaoh’s army drowns). It is a different sort of theory, but it would explain why the Church remains during the trumpets and what their purpose is. God is allowing time for people who will, to repent.

    What do you think of this fellow’s theory?

    • I see parallels, especially with the Lord giving people multiple opportunities to repent. The story of the Exodus also is a really good example of how precise the Lord is with dishing out punishment to those who deserve it while protecting His people from being adversely impacted by them.

      • Wayne and Connie,

        Pleeeeease analyze the Trumpets Judgement happening at the end of the Millennium, the Bowls Judgement happening in the Great Tribulation.

        Here is my logic: (too many scriptures to present you might get bored on reading all of it)

        1. Which of the two judgement is much severe and horrific so that you would know which should be first to happen, considering that the intensity of God’s Wrath is in increasing or exponential in manner?

        2. How can men accept the mark of the beast after experiencing all the horrific events of the Trumpets Judgement? And if they know that it is the making of God, Why would they choose still to side with or believed the antichrist even if they were deceived to believe that he is the messiah? Men will submit to anyone be it good or evil as long as that someone is the most powerful of all. Which this is what will happen at the end of the millennium.

        3. The key words “time for judging the dead” and “the beast that come out of the bottomless pit”, where can this parallel with other scriptures in the Book of Revelation?

        4. Abyss or Bottomless Pit is a prison. I don’t know of any prison that anyone can get in and out of it any time they want for several times. The demons don’t want to be there when Jesus was about to cast them out of the possessed man, because they know it is a hell of a prison.

        5. Rev. 11:18, talks about three groups here; the Dead; the prophets; and those who revere the name of God. There are also two separate events here; the judging of the dead and the rewarding of the prophets and saints.

        6. The Dead is entirely different from the Dead in Christ. The Dead does not mean the dead in spirit if we will interpret it as the dead will be judged by going through the bowls judge-ment. If this is the case, then the prophets and the saints will get their rewards at the same time during the bowls judgement. The saints were given only authority to judge and appointed as royal priests at the start of the millennium. I don’t know if you will call that a reward. I know our rewards will be crowns (priests don’t wear crowns) and we will be kings over the nations in the New Heaven and New Earth.

        I know this is not worth the time and effort on your part because of the extensive research that you already did with your present eschatological view.

        From a Pretribber, I became a Post Tribulation Rapture believer because of this few Scriptures:

        Revelation 21:19
        9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, ……….,I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb’s wife.

        Revelation 16:12-15
        12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; ……
        13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs ……
        14 For they are the spirits of devils, …..to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

        15 Behold, I come as a thief. BLESSED IS HE that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

        Revelation 16:17-19
        17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; …..
        18 And there were voices, and thunders, ……..
        19 And the great city was divided into three parts,……….. and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, …….

        Revelation 17:1
        17 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, ……… I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

        So you see with just the above few scriptures I accepted the Post Tribulation Rapture View.

        I hope you give this a chance, analyzing the Trumpet Judgement happening at the end of the Millennium.

        As you go through it, you will be confused with the 42 months, the witnesses, the little scroll, and the Seventh Seal. This is when you would have to go unlearn and learn again Daniel 9:27 context, 7 years and 3.5 years Tribulation is one of Satan’s deception. The Little Scroll and the Witnesses can be found in the Old Testament Prophecies. You will realize that most of the old testament prophecies talks about Israel’s plight and journey in the millennium.

  8. Try considering this views:
    1. Vials judgement happens before the start of the millenium. Keypoints are the mention of beast, false prophets.
    2. Trumpet Judgement happens before the end of the millenium. Keypoints are the mention of bottomless pit, Apollyon, and Abaddon.
    3. Silence in Heaven is the millenium period.
    4. First Seal up to Sixth seal happens from the ressurection of Jesus Christ up to His Second coming.
    5. Seventh seal is the millenium period.
    6. Gog and Magog happens before the end of millenium. Apollyon or Abadon is Gog.
    7. Consider the parallels of plague events in Exodus to Second Coming, and Second Coming to End of Millenium plague events.

    • Do you believe the two witnesses preach during the millennium? For they are killed at the end of the 6th trumpet, which if I understand you correctly you put at the end of the millennium. I refer you to Rev. 9:12 which call the 5th, 6th, and 7th trumpet the three woes. Then I refer you to Rev. 11:7-15 which tells us that the two witnesses die at the end of the 2nd woe (6th trumpet). That would put the trumpets within Daniel’s 70th week unless you are saying the two witnesses are around during the millennium, which wouldn’t fit even if you were to change the 1260 days they witness into years, for it would be too many years. That the vials are the 7th trumpet (and third woe) is seen when one reads Rev. 11:15-19 and compares it to 15:5-8;16:1. Also going backwards, it appears that the trumpets are the 7th seal when one looks at Rev. 8:1-6, which then by virtue of what I have written above, puts the trumpets within a chronology of seals, trumpets, then vials. The trumpets being the 7th seal, and the vials being the 7th trumpet, all within Daniel’s 70th week. As for Apollyon being or not being Gog, (I see no Scripture to back that up) that does not preclude the trumpets being before the end of this age. Ez. 38 & 39 seem to describe two different end time Armageddons with Gog and Magog, just as Rev. tells us there are two Armageddon type wars. One at the end of this age, Rev. 19, and the second at the end of the millennium in Rev. 20:7-10. It would seem that Gog rounds up the people of the earth two times to try to destroy God, once before the millennium, and once after.

      • Connie,

        The two witnesses will prophesy again and will execute the plagues to the nations for 3 1/2 years, as clearly said in Rev. 11, and not for the entire millennium period. The same thing 2,000 years after the ascension of Jesus Christ, there will be 3 1/2 years of Great Tribulation prior to His second coming. I know you believe in dual fulfillment and typologies in prophetic events be it in the Old Testament and New Testaments. So I leave it up to you to analyze.

        Ezekiel 38 is the Gog and Magog of Rev. 20, obviously because Israel or the Holy People of God that time in the Millennium are then living in safety and are settled in an unwalled city, and they survived from a war. After defeating Gog and Magog, God made Himself known to the nations as the LORD.

        Ezekiel 39 is the Gog and Magog in Armageddon War. The distinct clue there is the great supper that God prepared for the birds. Also you can fit in the seven years of burning fuel and seven months of burying the corpses in the millennium period. This time around, God made Himself known to Israel as the LORD.

        Here are some key points why I placed the Trumpets at the end of the millennium, including the two witness and the little scroll:
        1. The angel were asked to harm only those who does not have the seal of God on their foreheads. Why not those who have the mark of the beast on their forehead instead?
        2. In the 7th trumpet it mentioned, the time has come for judging the dead, and to reward the prophets and the saints. We know very well that the time to judge the dead will happen at the end of the millennium, at the great white throne judgement. It is clearly said in Rev. 20 that the rest of the dead will not rise first until the thousand year has ended.
        3. The Angel and the little scroll is entirely different from the Scroll and the Lamb of Rev. 5 (NIV Version)
        4. The Saints at the golden altar before the throne of Rev. 11 is different from the souls under the altar of Rev. 6. The Saints referred to here are the royal priests that reigns with Jesus Christ at the millennium. The Souls on the other hand are those still on the grave, their spirit crying out on God for vengeance, and are awaiting for their resurrection. (from Stephen up to the last martyr of the great tribulation)
        5. The Abyss was mentioned in the trumpet judgement and nowhere it was mentioned in the vials judgement (only the beast, false prophet, and the mark). We know that in Rev. 20, Satan will come out from the Abyss, so it is obvious that the angel that come out of the abyss, the beast that come out of the Abyss, and Apollyon and Abbadon, which all of this was mentioned in the trumpet judgement, could only refer to Satan. He is the last to be destroyed by God aside from Death and Hades.

        Now with regards to the 7th seal as the millennium, in Rev. 8:1 it mentioned that there was silence in Heaven for half an hour. It is John who are describing this vision. In 1 John 2:8, John also mentioned about the last hour. He said that the final antichrist will come, and even in his time there were already many antichrist, and this how they knew that it was the last hour. if we say that the final antichrist will come in our lifetime, it safe to assume that from the time of John up to our time, is 2,000 years apart. Lets do the math, if last hour is 2,000 years, then 1,000 years is half an hour. Correct? 🙂

        • You are welcome to believe whatever you want, but I find flaws in your suppositions, so will continue to believe what I believe, as it fits the Scriptures as far as I can see.

          • Try dividing revelation into two segments; Segment 1 is Revelation 2 to 11; segment 2 is Revelation 12 to 21.
            Compare this two segments and somehow you will notice it has the same essence or substance of the entire prophetic end time plan. The difference is they are viewed in two different angles.
            You will notice the sudden shift of John’s vision from the 11th chapter to the 12th chapter.

            You might want to consider the old testament prophecies on Israel having always describing two events like in Ezekiel, Joel, Isaiah, Zechariah…It’s like they are prophesying about the plight and troubles that Israel will go through during the great tribulation/Second Advent and at the end of the millennium.

  9. One other thing I have noticed about this debate is that Wayne has been discussing mainly what is happening from the heavenly scenes by the Angels etc however the actual events are carried out on the Earth by the two witnesses Moses and Elijah

    • I think it’s quite possible that the Two Witnesses and the heavenly angels will work together. For instance, the Two Witnesses could predict that a certain event will take place and angels behind the scenes will help to make things happen.

  10. 7 woes describe the physical /spiritual actions by man that line up with the other 7 angels and wrath. did you ever consider the 7 days of creation

  11. Hi Connie

    Thanks for the very lengthy reply which helps me to see why you believe as you do.

    It is clear that we are seeing things completely differently and I am glad it is not a salvation issue as I love you as a good sister and friend.

    The difference in our view points is this: You see Jesus returning one more time at the end of Daniel’s 70th week which quite a few people believe and you made your points to this effect.

    However, there are actually two more comings of Christ mentioned in Revelation which a lot of people can’t see. I won’t try and convince you of this as I know you will eventually find this out for yourself as you have done with the Sabbath as I noted by reading your articles over the years.

    I have looked at a lot of different viewpoints and I am always amazed at how a simple omission or misunderstanding can cause such animosity amongst christians. You have those who think the great tribulation is the whole of Daniel’s 70th week. Those who think it is the second half or last 1260 days and some who think the great tribulation and the wrath of God is the same amongst other things.

    There is a lot of confusion in this area and that’s why there will always be debates about it until the Lord returns

    I personally believe that the rapture happens in the second half of Daniel’s 70th week at the 6th seal after the Great Tribulation and I also believe it will only lasts for 45 days and not 1260 days as the wrath of God also starts at the 6th seal and we are not appointed unto wrath Rev 6:17. We then return with Jesus in Revelation 19 to take over the Earth.

    So let us agree to disagree at present until such time as we can see eye to eye.

    God Bless & Shalom

  12. That is very interesting Connie and I agree with a lot of your insights. However, where you place the Rapture is not where it is placed in scripture. You are assuming the 7th trumpet in revelation and the other trumpets mentioned are the same as the trumpets blown at the rapture. They are not. The rapture takes place the same time the 144,000 is sealed and protected which is at the 6th seal. The great tribulation ends at the 6th seal. ( note the great tribulation is not the whole of the last 7 years as many believe) The trumpets that you are referring to starts in the 7th seal. If you look carefully in rev 7 from verse 9 you will see the raptured saints in heaven before the trumpets of Revelation are blown. It is worth noting here that the mark of the beast is also enforced after the rapture and not before .

    • I’m not quite sure I understand why you think the mark of the beast is not enforced until after the rapture if you put the rapture after the tribulation.That’s why it’s called the great tribulation, isn’t it? Don’t you suppose the reason God cuts the tribulation short is because as He told us, there would be no people left alive at all if He didn’t? Everyone would either be dead from refusing the mark, or be marked, leaving nobody to go into the millennium. It is only in cutting the tribulation short of the 1260 days, and going on to the trumpets that anyone is able to escape the mark. Everyone will be too busy trying to survive the trumpets to bother with hunting down escaped Christians or others whom they’ve missed catching thus far.

      I guess how you view how things go down all depends on your interpretation of Scripture. I take Christ, and Paul, and John at their word when they place the gathering of the elect at the Second Coming or last trumpet, which is the 7th and last trumpet blown in heaven. Scripture would seem to indicate that the group on the sea of glass are not the raptured, but those tribulation martyrs for whom the 5th seal martyrs were told to wait, as they are the rest of the Christians who are to be martyred as they were. The vast majority of Christians are going to die, not be raptured. Only those who are alive and remain from the tribulation holocaust will be raptured. That’s why it is the worst time in the history of the world. The number killed will make Hitler’s holocaust look like a picnic. God tells us in Daniel and Revelation that He is turning the saints over to the beast to be killed. It is due to their need to be purified. He tells us that the church is going to be in great apostasy, and it is. It needs to be purified. That’s what terrible tribulation tends to due to Christians. Bring them back to God. That’s why the number is so many on the sea of glass. It is the worst holocaust in history. If it weren’t going to be that way and everyone was going to escape martyrdom through being raptured, then it wouldn’t be the greatest tribulation God’s people have ever faced, right? That’s almost a pre-trib viewpoint. We don’t escape it. We have to endure to the end which for most will mean death. Doesn’t it seem strange to say that so many will get through the tribulation to the rapture when only one of the seven churches even have people that are qualified to escape it? There are those in every church that are told to be overcomers, but in Rev. 12 we are told that those who are overcomers are those who love not their lives unto to death.

      I agree that the great tribulation ends at the 6th seal, for that is what Christ told us in the Olivet Discourse. When Paul said that the resurrection/rapture happens at the last trump, he was relating the Judaic belief (which Christ would have also known and accepted as He never refuted it) that the last trump would be sounded at the coming (which we know to be the Second Coming) of the Messiah, which was when the resurrection (and therefore rapture) would occur. This is a Jewish belief since way back when God brought Israel out of Egypt. They consider that the first trump was blown at Mt. Sinai with Moses and the last will be blown when the Messiah comes and the resurrection occurs. (They have always combined the resurrection with the Coming of the Messiah.) When you look at what John says in Rev. 10:7 and 11:15-18 at the blowing of that last trumpet you see the following: “But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets……….And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.”

      At the blowing of that 7th and last trumpet the mystery of God (which most people agree is the church) is finished. How can the church be finished at the last trump if it is removed back at the sixth seal? The kingdoms of the world become Christ’s at the last trump, not before. The time for the dead and saints to be judged and rewarded has come at the last trump, not before. And God’s wrath has come at the last trump. When people are screaming that God’s wrath has come at the sixth seal, note that it is people on earth screaming in fear, for what is happening, as people always call cataclysmic events the wrath of God. HEAVEN does not announce God’s wrath (and they should know when it starts) until the seventh trumpet. And the vials are called the wrath of God in chap. 15 and 16 and it is the last trump which announces them. We are not exempted from anything but God’s wrath, so there is no need to remove us until it has come. Thus you find the rapture after the last trumpet in Chap. 14. As Christ must sit at the right hand of God until all his foes are made his footstool Acts 2:34 (which doesn’t occur until that 42nd month of the beast’s reign when he is ousted by Christ’s return) and He must stay in heaven until the restitution of all things (kingdoms of the world become Christ’s) has come, Acts 3:21, which also occurs at the end of the beast’s reign, I don’t see how a rapture is possible before this point since He must needs leave heaven to come and rapture us and Scripture clearly says He won’t leave heaven until the beast’s reign is over and the kingdoms of the world become His, which we are told happens at that last and seventh trumpet. There is a rapture in Chapter 14:14-20 which seems to be described just as we are told the rapture will happen, in the clouds. Christ sits on the clouds and reaps the harvest (and as we know from other Scriptures it is done with the help of angels), just before God’s wrath (the vials) are poured out. And those on the sea of glass in Chap. 15 immediately after that rapture would appear to be the ones who weren’t overcomers by death, but got the victory over the beast by living. Scripture nowhere teaches two resurrections of the righteous, but anything other than a last trumpet resurrection/rapture requires it. I went from pre-trib to pre-wrath, but I still could not reconcile many of the Scriptures. It wasn’t until God showed me all these verses I have posted above and others, that I saw that we are not being as little children in faith and taking God at His simplest explanation when we don’t take Paul and John at their word. Christ did not tell us the whole story in the Olivet Discourse (obviously) as He states that He gathers His elect when He returns (the Second Coming), but He can’t return until the beast’s reign is over which is at the end of the 42 months, for when He returns He destroys the beast with the brightness of His coming and throws him in the lake of fire. That can’t happen until his 42 months are up. . When He said that He would gather the elect after the sixth seal signs, He wasn’t being deceptive. He simply wasn’t ready to give us the entire story. He had much more to tell, so saved it for John. It is our responsibility to put it together in it’s proper order. We are raptured after that sign, but not immediately, according to what He tells us in Revelation. When Paul said the last trump, he really meant the last trump that is sounded in heaven. He may not have known about the 7 trumpets that John related to us, but God did and He had Paul say what He did to help point us to the truth.

      .

      • The evolution of your Rapture position is important to emphasize. You understand Pre-Trib and understand Pre-Wrath since you adopted those positions previously. The fact that your position has evolved beyond these positions to a Rapture position involving the 7th trumpet should strongly indicate that neither the Pre-Wrath and (especially) the Pre-Trib positions are perfect.

        • I guess everyone comes to understanding at a different pace. I had to work through those positions and see the discrepancies and move on until I could reconcile everything. Nobody can do that for another. Everyone has to see it for themselves. Not only is it important to have to acknowledge and reconcile what IS in Scripture (which many people find very hard to do, they prefer to ignore the “hard” passages that give them trouble), it is also necessary to eliminate those suppositions that AREN’T really in Scripture, but are only assumed from previous bias teachings. Sometimes that is almost harder to do as you have to wipe the slate clean and start over. The mind doesn’t readily accept that.

    • I agree with that robert. The trumpets are judgements and the seals are not. We are not appointed to Gods wrath so we are taken out at seal 6-7. Clearly we know that the seals are NOT judgements as the saints are asking how long will he hold out with his wrath.

      • Hi Matt

        I am so glad to see that God is enlightening other people apart from me. It can feel very frustrating at times when you can see something clearly and you can’t seem to explain it in a way that others can understand. One other thing you may want to research Matt Is the two resurrections as it can be seen very clearly to me that there are multiple resurrections within each one. i.e the first resurrection is a period rather than 1 event. This can be seen thus:- Jesus was part of the first resurrection, we will be part of the first resurrection at the rapture and another group I notice is those that will die for not taking the Mark of the beast they will also be part of the first resurrection. It Is interesting to note that the First resurrection Is not complete until after the milliennium. Who knows how many more people may be resurrected in the milliennium as there are many things that are not revealed to us yet.

  13. It is worth noting here that the only righteous alive on the earth at this time is the two witnesses and the sealed 144,000 Israel tribes. The others would have been executed for rejecting the mark of the beast

    • To what time are you referring? To the time of the trumpets or the vials? Not every Christian will be executed. Some will live until the rapture, which is at the 7th trumpet, so there will be righteous until that time. Then those who have not taken the mark (besides the 144,000) will live through the vials to go into the millennium. Zechariah tells us that there will be some from every nation that survive the Day of the Lord and go into the millennium. That is why there is a sheep and goat judgment, because there are those who helped Christians during this time and so they can enter into the Kingdom. Not everyone who is not a Christian takes the mark of the beast. Children might not be required to take it until a certain age because they don’t buy or sell, and I don’t know that God would allow them to be condemned to hell by someone else’s decision and not their own decision to reject God. Others might not take it for political reasons. For whatever reason, there will be those who are not Jews or Christians who make it into the millennium because they did not take the mark.

  14. The trumpet warning judgments are said to be one “third, one “third”, etc. Satan drew a “third” of the stars of heaven. Maybe the LORD is trying to tell us who is behind the trumpets. The vial judgment are universal. They wipe out everything necessary for human life. If everything in the sea dies – that’s 75% of our oxygen. Plants are the other 25%. The LORD told Abraham that he would not destroy Sodom so long as ANY righteous people lived there. I believe the same will be true of the vial judgments. I believe the righteous will be gone from this earth before they hit.
    Prophecy Viewpoint .com

  15. You are on the right track, just like the seals announce the trumpets. Excluding the 1st and fifth seals, just start relating the first trumpet to the second seal. I see that the first seal started at the crucifixion with Jesus being the first persecuted/Martyr and false religion/spirit of the antichrist growing ever since like the other three horses. The first trumpet opens the 70th week as the great tribulation leading to the middle of the week 5th seal day of the Lord. Rapture, Sealing 144k, great multitude. Then the wrath of the Lamb is the second half of the week starting with the sixth seal ending the 7 year periodd into the millennium.

  16. No, all I’m saying is that we both agree that the temple is opened after the 7th trumpet sounds. If the 7th trumpet & 7th vial are the same event, then it also means that all of the plagues (trumpets & vials) are now (simultaneously) completed as opposed to the chronological view which has the vials following the trumpets. If the simultaneous view is true, then Rev 15:8 and 11:19 make sense since the temple is opened only after the plagues are completed (15:8) and the 7th trumpet is sounded (11:19).

  17. Okay, I’m a little confused. Could you elaborate a little further? Are
    you saying that the temple being opened at the first vial indicates that
    though it is not mentioned, the temple is opened at the first trumpet,
    therefore they can be the same? Why would he not mention seeing the ark
    at the beginning of the trumpets rather than at the 7th if that were the
    case?

  18. Connie45 – I think your explanation of the angels themselves being the plagues are a possibility but probability-wise maybe questionable. As for the temple openings you reference in 11:19 & 15:5, I see an alternate explanation where the trumpets & vials are the same events. Given this, after the 7th trumpet is blown, the temple is opened (11:19). That means the 7th vial is also poured out since the trumpets/vials are the same event. It makes sense that the temple is reopened after the 7th trumpet/vial is completed which corresponds to 15:8 – that no one can go in until the plagues are finished.

  19. In going back and reading this more carefully, I think I am changing my mind somewhat about this. 15:1 seems to be like a chapter heading of the start of a new vision, so that verse up there doesn’t bother me introducing the subject.

    What I now think I think upon further study and reflection is that the angels themselves are not carrying the plagues in vials coming out of the temple, as I think you are right, they are given them outside, as God’s throne is not in the Holy of Holies but out in front of the sea of glass, so the beasts would also be out there. I think possibly the angels themselves ARE (or have in the sense of being infected) the plagues and what they are handed in the vials are God’s anger, which is literally what is says. It says they are handed God’s wrath or anger, not handed the plagues. They are the means of God’s wrath being carried out. In their bodies is the fulness of God’s wrath. His wrath allows them to release the plagues that they represent in their being. We talk about demons being demons of suicide, murder, etc. Well, what if these angels literally are plagues and what they are handed is merely God’s anger to pour out with the plagues which they have?

    All of the action thus far in heaven seems to have been in the courtyard where God’s throne is in front of the sea of glass. We know this, as the temple was a pattern of the temple in heaven and the sea of glass would be represented by the laver, which is in the courtyard. Likewise we see the altar which also is in the courtyard. It is not until the 7th trumpet that the Holy Place or as we call it, the Holy of Holies is opened for John to see the ark of the covenant or testimony as it is called here. We are told this is opened at the end of Chap. 11:19, and then again in Chap. 15:5 which indicates the same opening. So that would seem to first indicate that the trumpets and vials cannot be the same, as the temple where the ark is located is not opened until the 7th trumpet when the angels with the plagues comes out of it. Then it is closed until the vials are done.

    Thinking of the angels as literally being plagues might be a new concept, but is not the angel of death..death? It would make the passage them make perfect sense, would it not?

  20. I think the problem as I see it with your scenario is v7 specifically
    states the angels are given the vials by the living creature after they
    come outside of the temple in v6. Once outside no one can go back into
    the temple until the plagues are completed v8 so the “picture” or
    afterthought of the angels in the temple with the vials does not appear possible in my estimation.

  21. There is no problem if you think of it as John throwing it in as an afterthought that he had forgotten to mention. I say that because the beasts are around the throne of God inside the temple, not outside of it, so it would have handed them the vials before they came out. So it is as if he says, the seven angels came out of the temple with the seven plagues and (oh yeah I forgot to say how they got them) one of the beasts gave them the vials full of the wrath of God (the plagues). That’s how I read it, anyhow.

  22. The problem with that explanation is that the angels are depicted as already holding the plagues while situated INSIDE the temple in vs 1. They come OUTSIDE of the temple while still holding the plagues
    in vs 6. THEN, they are given the vials in vs 7. Vs 8 clearly states
    that no one could go back into the temple until the 7 plagues were completed. Therefore they cannot be said to be holding the vials in the temple because they aren’t allowed back in. That is why this passage is a particularly sticky one for those who deny that the trumpets and bowl judgments are the same. I’m still looking an adequate explanation but thanks for your response.

  23. One commentator I read thinks that Revelation 15:1 is a summary statement of verses 6-7. That verses 6-7 describe how the angels received the plagues of the seven vials.

  24. I too have difficulty seeing the trumpets/vials as the same events as they don’t line up in all respects. Having said that though, what puzzles me more in Rev 15:1,6 we see the 7 angels holding the 7 last plagues. And then they are given the 7 vials by one of the living creatures in Rev 15:7. Therefore the plagues in verses 1 & 6 are not the vials/bowls given to them in v7. Thus I can only conclude that the plagues = trumpets which lends support to the simultaneous view. Can anyone posit another explanation as this perplexes me?

  25. The truth about trumpets and vials is that John sees the vision of the greater tribulation period from Jewish angle whereas the vials was shown to him from the church angle. Both visions mean the same thing. There could be some differences but we know that there are many such contradictions in the bible and yet every word is true. For example, the 2 different creation accounts in Genesis. God bless you Wayne for your efforts.

  26. Ok, Connie, I am glad that you do not believe in the rapture theory. It is clear that there is no second chance when Jesus Christ returns the next time. Either you are among the blessed people or you are condemned (the reward is with me Rev: 22:12).

    As for being stubborn and not accepting what the Bible teaches: You know my life speaks differently! I was first a Catholic and
    noticed how little they care about the Bible. Nothing made sense from the Word
    so much that I became evolutionistic and then by God’s grace He brought me to
    know about a denomination closest to the Word of God, namely the Seventh-day
    Adventists. Today, I believe that they (we have) have the Spirit of prophesy
    (Rev. 19:10) given by God to us. By God’s grace He brought me into the Truth! He
    had mercy on my soul even though I am nothing and I do not deserve anything.
    And yet He gave His Son the ultimate sacrifice also for me and the Son, Jesus
    Christ, took it voluntary upon Him. In His Mercies He wants to life internally
    with all His created beings.

    As for the earth is empty and void during the Millennium and the devil is bound there: What about the only place in the Bible where the Millennium is mentioned, Rev. chapter 20. The earth is described as abyss alike the prophetic words of Jeremiah and Isaiah (Previously mentioned in my comments). In the Millennium is no
    sacrificial system introduced. It just does not make sense (even tough you
    claim wrongly that the Bible teaches differently)!!!! I have in my previous
    comments replied to your erroneous interpretation. Now, let us assume for a
    moment that you could think that in the Millennium the sacrificial system would
    be reintroduced. What does this mean? Jesus returned and the saved people met
    Christ in the air (see my previous comment). The devil is bound in the abyss. Shorty before Jesus returns what happens in the last seven plaques????? After all the woes hit the earth it is a disaster on earth
    and this is an understatement. When 1/3 of the waters are like blood; when
    there is an earthquake that islands disappear, when one third of the stars are
    fallen and 1/3 of the moon and sun disappears. You really still want to be on
    this earth. That will be terrible on earth with all the dead rotten corpses.
    The stench is the least you will be concerned!!! And you stated yourself that
    after the Millennium the earth will only be made new. You will not want to be on
    this earth with all that disaster!!!! You could not concentrate about a
    sacrificial system!!!!!!!!

    Thus, your whole arguments can not hold up!!!! It is plain wrong!!!

  27. Neither Wayne, nor I believe in a secret rapture. Neither of us are pre-trib, so you’ve got that wrong. As for three comings of Christ, no there are two. His first and His second. Upon His second, he fulfills the PROMISE that was made to Israel for them to have a nation reigned over by their Messiah. Christ does not leave and come back again. He stays and reigns. As for nobody on earth during the millennium, Scripture teaches otherwise in many passages, it is just that you refuse to accept what God’s Word says because it goes against how YOU think things should be. Again ;you are missing the point. The sacrificial system NEVER covered their sins. It was only a representation of what the Messiah would do when He came and died for their sins. The sacrificial system in the millennium will be a memorial, just as we have the Lord’s Supper. It will not be for the purpose of covering their sins, and it never was. It only EVER was a means of putting a physical reminder in front of them of God’s promise. And it served a secondary purpose of feeding the cohen and Levites. They didn’t live on the tithes alone. And if you remember sometimes the sacrifice came back to the person offering it, as the Passover lamb did.
    Zechariah 14 has to occur after the return of Christ, and even if you just want to accept the Feast of Tabernacles rather than the whole sacrificial system, the point is, there still are people populating the earth. The new heavens and new earth are not created until after the 1000 years. God renovates this earth through fire as He once renovated it through water. It will not be annihilated, but cleansed. And there will be survivors of the Day of the Lord.

    Wayne and I do seek the truth, which is why we accept what God says, even when it is difficult or contrary to what we think God should do. We accept that He means exactly what He says. To seek truth means to accept what God says even when you don’t think it should be that way. His ways are far above our ways and we should not question them, even if we don’t understand them.

    • Wayne, I agree with Connie. This is my first visit and I am very impressed with your observations and commentary. I became very interested in Bible Prophecy while reading my Bible through from cover to cover when I was 17 years old.I am now 74 years old and I am still studying! My continuing research led me to your website. Keep up the good work and keep pressing toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

  28. Thank you Wayne. That is very kind of you to say that. You are incredibly knowledgeable, wise, and discerning yourself, especially for someone so young.

  29. For anyone who might be reading this discussion, I tend to keep my responses short and try to avoid major debates because I have a couple of major things I’m working on. Just because I do not post long responses sometimes does not mean I am incapable of providing good evidence to support a certain side of a debate.

    I posed the question about Isaiah 56 to gauge how Angelo saw a passage that a lot of people link to the Millennium.

    Connie is very smart and knows the Bible well so even if you don’t agree with her on this issue or another issue you can learn a lot by reading her blogs on Bible prophecy and Bible conundrums.

  30. Am I sure about the Ottoman Empire? Well, unless the historians are all completely wrong, yes I am sure.It’s a recorded historical fact. Not all of the history of the world is found in the Bible. God couldn’t put everything in or we’d never be able to read it all. The topic of Revelation 20 is not to describe the millennium. It is to indicate when that millennium will take place in the scheme of the end times. The details of the millennium are found throughout the Old Testament prophecies.

    I might mention that you have completely ignored the points made about Ezekiel’s description not being fulfilled by the second temple, and if you read the book of Zechariah, especially chapters 12-14, you will find it talks all about the end times when the Lord will make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for the world, which is what is happening now. Then he goes on to describe all the events up to when Christ sets up His kingdom on earth and how then the sacrificial system will again be in place, as things will go back to the theocracy God intended to rule the world. It only passed to the Gentiles because the Jews rejected Christ. Israel was promised that they would have a nation reigned over by their Messiah. It has not happened. It will happen after their Messiah returns. That is the reason for the millennium. It is God fulfilling His promise to them. We know that this kingdom will last 1000 years, because we are told the length of time between the first resurrection which occurs at the end of this age when Christ returns, and the second resurrection of the unbelievers for judgment before eternity. In between those two is 1000 years during which time Israel (and the world) is ruled by her Messiah. If you study the scriptures in their entirety, you see how it all fits together. God does not tell you all there is to know about something in one book. It is up to us to study the entire Bible and put the jigsaw puzzle of it all together to learn all there is about the various things.For instance, all the prophecies about Christ’s first and second coming are strewn throughout the entire Bible, not just in the gospels. The same is true of the millennium. He already told us much about it in the O.T. There was no need to repeat all that in Revelation, for John already had enough to tell us about things God had not told us previously.

    You need to study the Old Testament prophets to find out all the information. If you read Isaiah 11, you will find it again talks about the time when God recovers the remnant of Israel from the nations and then the lion will lie down with the lamb, etc. This clearly is describing a time which does not exist yet, but will, when the earth will be filled with the knowledge of God. There are many passages throughout the O.T. which clearly speak of this time in the future when the world will be under Christ’s rule. When the saints will rule with Him for 1000 years, as promised, over whom do you think they rule?

  31. Connie, I am sorry when I first respond to Wayne. I will come back later to your assumptions,- especially, since I have never read that the Bible ever mentions the Ottoman empire (1300 to 1500 AD). Are you sure about what you just wrote? However, you also did not respond to my statements about Rev. 20 that no sacrificial system is mentioned in connection with
    the thousand years. You just bombarded me with jumps of the Bible that cannot
    logically be directly linked. And you stated yourself that the Scripture should
    interpret itself.

    Wayne seems much easier to be handled. I assume this statement about Isa: 56 was on my address? Again, there is no logical
    explanation to connect Isa: 56 with the thousand years. The Lord just states
    in Isa 56: 6-7 that His blessings are not exclusively for the Jews. The strangers who follow the sacrificial system and the habits of His chosen people at that time
    will also be partaker in the blessings and salvation that God promised the Jews.

  32. I want to add the following comment about the Scriptures I previously mentioned in Ez. 44. In verse 2 it says, ” Then said the LORD unto me; This gate shall be shut, it shall not be
    opened, and no man shall enter in by it; because the LORD, the God of
    Israel, hath entered in by it, therefore it shall be shut.” The reason the gate was shut by the Ottoman empire is because the Lord’s glory will return through that presently closed gate, which is why they also put a cemetery in front of the gate, in the belief that it would ultimately prevent the Messiah from coming and passing through the gate, thereby preventing His coming at all. After the Lord’s glory returns, the gate will again be shut. The glory of God never returned to the temple after the Babylonian captivity. The second temple never had God’s glory in it. Therefore this passage cannot possibly be about the second temple. It clearly is referring to a third temple. And since the prince who will sit and eat in these gates also is said to offer sacrifices of all kinds, clearly this is not speaking of the second temple. Ez. 45:17 “And it shall be the prince’s part to give burnt offerings, and meat
    offerings, and drink offerings, in the feasts, and in the new moons, and
    in the sabbaths, in all solemnities of the house of Israel: he shall
    prepare the sin offering, and the meat offering, and the burnt offering,
    and the peace offerings, to make reconciliation for the house of
    Israel.” There was no prince of Israel during the second temple period nor would he be allowed to offer sacrifices. Only priests could do that. Nor was the Eastern gate shut, as already mentioned.

    It further says in verse 4-5 “Then brought he me the way of the north gate before the house: and I
    looked, and, behold, the glory of the LORD filled the house of the LORD:
    and I fell upon my face. And the LORD said unto me, Son
    of man, mark well, and behold with thine eyes, and hear with thine ears
    all that I say unto thee concerning all the ordinances of the house of
    the LORD.” The glory of the Lord fills the temple and He tells Ezekiel to mark well the ORDINANCES that go along with the temple, for they are to be observed. One cannot make this be about the second temple.

  33. Out of curiosity, what do you make of Isaiah 56, particuarly verses 6-7 which states:

    Isa 56:6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;

    Isa 56:7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

  34. If you read Zechariah 14 you will see that it is speaking about the Day of the Lord and what follows Christ’s return. It says that all will be required to observe the Feast of Tabernacles, and in the last verse notice that it speaks about the sacrifices that they will “seethe” in the holy pots dedicated to the Lord. One only seethes an animal sacrifice. This clearly is speaking of the time after Christ’s Second Coming. In Ez. 44:1-3 it talks about the eastern gate being shut and the prince eating bread before the Lord at that gate. This did not occur during the course of the Second Temple. This gate of the Second Temple was sealed by the Ottoman Empire in 1541, so obviously this prophesy was not fulfilled by the second temple.
    Whether you choose to accept God’s Word on this or not does not change what God has said about it. What will be, will be.

  35. Connie you are jumping the gun again. First I never doubted that Ezekiel is not a prophetic book. I just pointed out that the book of Ezekiel was written around 600-580 B.C. at the time of Babylonian imprisonment of the Jews. It is clear that the Jews wanted a temple, a place where they could worship and see the power of God because the old temple Salomon’s was destroyed by the Babylonians. Thus, the vision of Ezekiel predicted of the new rebuilding of the temple, which happen about 100-150 years later as it was foreseen in the book Ezekiel. This second temple was destroyed 68 AD by the Romans under Tiberius (thus, you cannot know how it really looked since, I am certain that you do not have a photograph or any video from about 2000 years ago) and since, the Jews have not have any temple and will not have any sacrifices ever supported by God. That is why Jesus Christ stated on the cross before he died:
    it is done!!! I understand that you have this false model in your mind however, you cannot support from the Bible nor historically why one should according to
    your believe system neglect the building of the second temple. And then put the
    Ezekiel description of the temple at the end of times in the thousand years that follow when Jesus Christ’s return.
    But let us look at the only place in the Bible where it is written about the thousand years chapter 20 of Revelation. You must admit there is not one place mention where Jews sacrifice in any temple. Instead verse
    Revelation 20:1 to 20:3 the devil is thrown into the Abyss and chained at the
    beginning of the thousand years for a thousand years. Note, it says not earth,-
    it says Abyss (void without form) that is important as the earth is described
    in the original text in Genesis, at the beginning when the earth was created,
    as void without form. Now, you notice what is left of the earth, also right at the beginning of the thousand years, the earth is deserted. The earth became a place that is void of any life except the chained devil. There are no people on earth because Jesus had returned after the plaques and his reward was with him (Rev. 22:12). Next verses: Rev. 20, verses 4-6, talks about two resurrections. And we know from the same verses these people who life were blessed and reigned with Christ and were part of the first resurrection. Thus, they were dead before and must have been resurrected by some event. And as Christians from the Bible we know and look forward to the return of our Lord. Hence this mass resurrection was caused by the return of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. And the people in this first resurrection were these in the white robes e.g. Rev. 14 and were these ones who were saved among the earth human populations.

    The people that followed in the second resurrection did not live during the thousand years because of verse 5 of Revelation 20. These people came alive in verses Rev. 20:7 after the thousand years. And the rest of Rev. 20 talks about the punishment of the people in the second resurrection, the punishment of the devil and his angels and how God gets ride of death and Hades.

    Again there is also no scriptural evidence that in the thousand years the temple should be rebuilt and with it any sacrificial system of the Jews by Jews reintroduced. I
    can just restate all what you believe and infer to the Bible is not what the Word
    wants to teach us. This religious understanding is blasphemy and just takes the power of the truth away.

  36. If you read the chapters carefully, you will notice the description of the temple. That is not the second temple. This temple that God has told Israel to build has never been built to the specifications given. It is for the millennium. If you look at the land grants, and where things will be located, they have yet to be fulfilled in the future. None of anything described in those chapters have taken place. So when do you expect they will? The only time left for them to take place is in the millennium, in the reign that God promised Israel they would have under their Messiah. When you understand that these chapters have yet to be fulfilled, you have to accept that the sacrifices will again be instituted. You may not understand why God is doing this, but He IS doing this whether you want it or not, because He has said He will. We do not decide how things will be, He does. It is not for us to tell Him how He is going to run things. You need to go back and read the chapters again carefully and you will see that these are speaking of things that have not occurred yet. There is no choice but to put it in the future, like it or not.

  37. Thank you for your comments

    Sorry, it took me a while to get all the information together to give you a carefully thought through response. I also read chapters 38 to 44 in Ezekiel. I noticed that not one of these chapters refers to the thousand years directly (the Millennium) as
    mention in Revelation 20: 1-10. And this is a very important fact and it means by interpretation you assumed that it would fit into the thousand years.
    However, this is someone’s arbitrary assumption and cannot be supported when one analyzes what is known and written in the Bible. Scholars think that the prophetic views of Ezekiel fall together with the distraction of Jerusalem by the Babylonians 605-586 B.C. The temple was destroyed and the valuables were taken to Babylon. Ezekiel prophesies the rebuilding of the temple and reinstatement of the worship (as in Leviticus) about 200 years later by
    Jeremiah and followers. Why do you think then that has anything to do with the
    Millennium????

    Connie, I understand the biblical sacrificial system and why blood needed to be shed. It fed indeed the Levites and the priests. However, they benefitted mostly from the Tenth of every man and women of the Israelites. Thus, they did not need for survival the meat from the sacrifices. However, God wanted them to eat the flesh of the sin sacrifice thus, the sin was transferred to them and brought by them into the Holy place since normal people could not enter the Holy place. Once a year the Holy place was cleansed at the Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur) by the High Priest who needed to enter the other compartment, namely the Most Holy place. And guess who is called in the book of Hebrew the High priest. It is our Savior and God Jesus Christ.

    Thus it makes no sense to call the death and resurrection by Jesus Christ as just temporarily abandoning the sacrificial system. As you stated the sacrificial system should have reminded the Jews constantly that ultimately the Christ will come and hence, no sacrificial system would be
    needed ever after.

  38. I have not looked at the video to which you are referring, but saw your comment that there would be no sacrificial system tolerated by God in the future. Apparently you have not read the book of Ezekiel, for it is clearly laid out that in the millennial temple there will be sacrifices made. Perhaps you do not understand that the sacrificial system was not really for the purpose of actually taking away the people’s sins, for the blood of animals could never do that. It was in place for several other reasons. Yes, it did temporarily provide a fulfilling of the law that sin requires the death of the sinner, and since the life is in the blood, someone’s blood must be spilled. Hence the animals were chosen to be used by God, which was a very temporary substitute for the blood that was actually required of the person who had sinned. It was their faith in the future blood of the Savior that would be shed that actually provided the grace for God to set aside the punishment of their sins until Christ came. The sacrifices were a picture to constantly remind them of this fact. The sacrifices also had a very practical purpose. It fed the Levites and priests. All of the sacrifices and the 3rd year tithes of the people were given to the the priests and their families to feed them, since they had no inheritance of land and spent their time serving God. This is why they will be instituted again during the millennium. For the temple system to work, there must be a way to feed the priests and their families. Also, it seems that not having to constantly be reminded of our sins by having to make a sacrifice has led to a lot of apostasy and carnal living. Perhaps this will help mitigate that problem. The entire millennial sacrificial system is laid out in Ezekiel. Try reading it.

  39. I think you are completely off with so many interpretations of the Bible: e.g. you do not understand the basics that there are two laws described by the Bible: the mosaic law and the ten commandments, and the mosaic law was nailed to the cross when Jesus Christ died. This is very important in understanding the biblical texts about the law. Why was the curtain of the most holy place in the temple from top to bottom torn when Jesus died? He was the ultimate sacrifice and never again any other sacrifice will be needed. Jesus Christ paid the price for all of us sinners. Thus, it is clear that never again according to the Bible any sacrificial system will be supported by our heavenly Father as the former jews sacrificial system. Thus, all this interpretation with rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem and thinking a moment that any biblical text would foresee a renewed introduction of the sacrificial system is so blasphemous. It shows how much truth you received by the Holy Spirit. As a teacher of the Bible you know very well what is written in Revelation about them that take something off or add to this book that they have part of the second resurrection.

    Another part, that is misunderstood greatly that is about the high priest Jesus Christ and the sanctuary in the book of Hebrews. Here I have a video that sheds light what is Jesus doing right now in heaven in the most holy place:

    http://vimeo.com/79610452

  40. The general timeframe is close to what I have in mind. The order of events varies between your timeline and the timeline I’m currently constructing. It’s too difficult for me to go into specifics since the timeline I’m constructing is not fully complete yet.

  41. In comparing the trumpet vs the vial judgements, Doesn’t it almost seem as though the trumpet is announcing some unpleasent event coming upon the Earth, and the somewhat corresponding vial judgement is God’s angel pouring out his wrath and intensifying the situation like one might pour gas on a fire.

  42. For what it’s worth, in 2012, at least one end time Jerusalem seige will  take place from 10-31-12 through 12-19-12.

    As I describe in this post,  http://www.christianforums.com/t7634865/

    There was a Satanic ritual version of Daniel’s 70 weeks unto the messiah prophecy that started with the Glenn Beck Rally to Restore Jerusalem on 8-24-11.  Plus 70 weeks ends on 12-25-12.

    Looking at Daniel 9, messiah is cut off from the start of the 63rd week through the 69th week.  In other words, 7 weeks.  When “weeks”/ Shabuot in the scripture is understood to mean Shabuot the Feast of 7 weeks from Passover to Pentecost (the 50th day), the term means “years” not weeks.  The UN mandate to create Israel in Nov. 1947 plus 70 years gives us an end around Nov. 2017.  Nov. 2016 would end the 69th year when messiah would come.  Subtract 7, means the Tribulation is 2009 through 2016ish.

    Back to the 70 weeks from 8-24-11 through 12-25-12.  10-31-12 through 12-19-12 is a microcosm/ fractal of the 7 “year” tribulation.

    A “7 week” tribulation, if you will.  The antichrist takes power in the middle of the trib.  Looking at the middle of this 7 week tribulation, you get 11-24-12, the day of Ashura, the day when Mahdi is to give his global call to overthrow the world’s govt’s unto God according to Islamic eschatology.

    There seems to be 2 sets of 7 year tribulations, 2008 through 2015 and also 2009 through 2016.  I hypothesize that the new Pope in April will start the Great Tribulation of the 1st set, 2008-15.  This timeframe from April through December 2012 forms a decoy Tribulation, with August 3-11ish forming the decoy “middle” of the tribulation.  December 21 would be the false end of the world, but also would be the real middle of the real 7 year tribulation.

    Maybe you’ve heard things about the Olympics this year.  And maybe we would get faked aliens.  Looking at it in this light, the faked aliens come in the middle of the decoy tribulation to the Olympics (honoring Zeus/ Satan and yet the logo says “Zion”/ a false New Jerusalem) and are destroyed by “God”/ the real antichrist on 12-21-12.

    Soo, depending on how you look at the entire sequence of the Trib, you could maybe gauge where certain events take place within the decoy Trib.

  43. I understand the limitations in trying to get everything figured out. I’m just trying to get the structure of what I will present as good as I can get it.  Once that is done I’ll work on trying to present what I have.  I hope what I have will be worth the wait.

  44. If you wait until you have everything figured out in the Bible, you would never present anything. LOL.  The best we can do is find as much as we can about the topic, make the best judgment we can, and change things when we find out we have made some errors.  It’s not a perfect science, obviously, considering how some people interpret the Word, but we can only try out best.  What bothers me is that some people interpret it via “revelations” rather than taking Scriptures literally and comparing Scripture to Scripture. It’s fine to take into account history and other things (such as other writings) to help give you some possible insights, but I have serious trouble with the kind of “revelations” some people talk about.

    I’ve just written an article about a well-known pastor who takes a major stand against all the New Age stuff, the mega-church stuff, and in general all the apostate stuff going on in the churches. He’s garnered quite a following because of this, and someone suggested I listen to him, as they thought he was so terrific. I listened to hours of his sermons and heard some very disturbing things.  He, like Camping, seems obsessed with numbers – he says he studies with the Bible in one hand and a calculator in the other, spends an awful lot of time “decoding” occultic writings via “revelation” from the Bible, and spiritualizes a great deal of the Bible’s teachings.  His main teaching is based upon an assumption (one that nobody can prove) ferreted out from the occult books via “revelation.”  The fact that the extent to which he takes this teaching (and he is teaching this is a Biblical fact) is in no way based upon Scripture does not seem to bother anybody.  A number of his teachings are based upon unwarranted assumptions. These teachings concern the end times, and they are setting people up for a scenario that is not necessarily validated by Scripture.  I find it disturbing, but other than my own article and something someone who is obviously disturbed put on youtube, there is absolutely nothing on the internet (because I have searched) that in any way says anything negative about this man. It is all about how wonderful he is.  People are listening to the parts they want to hear about apostasy, (which are true and good) and then taking in the other stuff (which is not Scriptural) which he is slipping in as being just as valid.  It’s like Camping starting all over again. People simply do not know their Scriptures.  There is no discernment out there.

  45. I would say that there are correspondences between them, but not that they are the same events.  The same template of events that increase in magnitude through time.

    About the 4th set, IMO the world is on fire in the 4th Trumpet and this is what causes the smoke to darken a third of the sky.  By the 4th Vial, the entire world is on fire.

    About the 6th set,
    Rev 9:17  And thus I saw the horses
    in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire,
    and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.

    Rev 9:18  By these three was the
    third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the
    brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.The 4 angels are the 4 horsemen – false christ, war, famine, death.War is the red horse/ fire.  Famine is the black horse/ smoke.  Brimstone is yellow – the pale horse, death.I’m just speculating, but there could be a correspondence to Daniel’s 4 beasts which would translate to Mystery Babylon (a mix of the UN and the Catholic Church out of Jerusalem), Satan (Gog/ Russia/ Putin), the Assyrian/ muslim antichrist (possibly the US in Iraq- “Obama is a Muslim” – meaning he is Al Dajjal, the false Mahdi), and the false Jewish messiah and ruler of the 10 state EU (Prince William or Harry).Anyway, there are 3 mouths isssuing death – by fire, smoke, and brimstone.  These 3 would be the same 3 in the 6th Vial.Thanks for an interesting writeup.

  46. Very much so. Whenever I think I get close to finishing I find I have more to figure out.  I can’t present my findings until I have everything completed because new information may come in that changes everything.

  47. I’m glad if you find it helpful.  Trying to figure stuff out is like trying to put together a huge mosaic.  You sometimes think you have it, but then discover something new.  It’s a constant work in progress.

  48. Your observation about the fourth trumpet vs. the fourth vial judgment is a very good one.  I think it’s very reasonable to think that the sun’s intensity is magnified in the fourth vial judgment.  (As an aside, there is a National Geographic show about what conditions would be like on Earth if the sun’s size grew to the point it explodes, so that may be something worth watching).

    I’ve spent some time on your blog recently looking at your view on certain prophecy events.  Your work is helping me think of new ideas as I try to figure out things.  

    For anyone reading the comments, you can read Connie’s work at the following link:

    endtimesstudies.blogspot.com/

  49. Just as a thought, you say did not see a problem with the 4th vial and trumpet being the same in the theory, but one says that they are darkened by a third, and the other says the sun is scorching men with its heat, which implies more than 100%, not less. In Is. 30:26 it speaks of the sun on the day that the Lord binds up the breach of His people and heals their wound, which happens at the end of Daniel’s 70th week. “Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the
    sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven
    days, in the day that the Lord bindeth up the breach of his people, and
    healeth the stroke of their wound.”  The sun will be 7 times brighter, which implies 7 times hotter, which would scorch men with its heat.  Then darkness falls upon the  entire kingdom of the beast, which is the entire earth.  It would almost sound as if the sun goes nova and collapses.  Since New Jerusalem will light the earth it wouldn’t be needed. – Rev. 21:23-24 “And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in
    it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light
    thereof. And the nations of them which are saved shall
    walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory
    and honour into it.”

    Also I find it problematic that the seventh trumpet would have to sound with the first trumpet, as the vials are contained in the seventh trumpet.  So it would be trumpets 1 and 7 sounded simultaneously, then trumpets and vials 2-6, which does not make sense. 

    I’ve had people tell me that the seals, trumpets, and vials are all opened at the same time too.  It doesn’t work for me. I see Revelation as chronological.  Sort of like an outline for an English paper with the seals being the Roman numerals, the trumpets being the capital alphabet letters indented underneath VII the seventh seal, and the vials being small numerals indented under G. the seventh trumpet.  But that’s just me.