The Great Commission & End Time Prophecy

great commission

My church held a weeklong revival meeting a while back. The featured speaker spoke about Bible prophecy on the last two nights of the meeting.

I was present each night because I perform several media tasks at my church. I disagreed with much of what the speaker taught concerning Bible prophecy. As I listened, I thought of passages and verses that refuted what he taught.

I did not challenge the speaker as he taught out of respect. But, it was hard for me to watch people learning and accepting unbiblical end time teachings.

This recent experience has led to this article. This article is a rebuttal to what I heard at my church. I also write this article because I want you to consider an idea you may have never heard before.

This article explores an overlooked aspect of the Great Commission relevant to understanding end time Bible prophecy.

The Great Commission

The Great Commission is a call by Christ for His followers to spread the Gospel to the ends of the earth. Matthew 28:18-20 records the Great Commission:

“(18) And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. (19) Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: (20) Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.” (Matthew 28:18-20)

The Great Commission is often cited at my church to motivate us to witness to people and to remind us that Christ is with us. No one at my church doubts that the Great Commission is a message for Christians. Many other Christians also believe the Great Commission is a message for them.

Let’s focus for a moment on a significant promise Christ made while giving the Great Commission: “lo,I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.”

  • Why would Christ promise to be with believers until the end of the world?
  • Why would Christ mention the end of the world?

The reason Christ referenced the end of the world in His promise is that believers will be present at the end of the world. Christ would not make this promise if believers won’t be present at the end of the world.

The Parable of the Wheat and Tares

The parable of the wheat and tares reinforces the idea that believers will be on Earth at least until the end of the world. Christ described the wheat (believers) and tares (the wicked) both present on Earth until the harvest (the end of the world):

Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.” (Matthew 13:30) “(37) He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; (38) The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; (39) The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.” (Matthew 13:37-39)

Given that believers will be on Earth at least until the end of the world, it is beneficial to our understanding of the end times to identify when the end of the world will transpire.

The End of the World

We can learn much about the events preceding “the end of the world” by examining Matthew 24. The chapter records a lecture given by Christ on Mount Olives about the future that is commonly known as the “Olivet Discourse”. Christ’s disciples asked Him to provide a sign about two things:

  1. His coming
  2. The end of the world

“And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?” (Matthew 24:3)

The request to reveal “the sign” about two events indicates that these events are linked. The coming of Christ is linked to the end of the world. Christ gave His disciples’ insight about these events. Christ indicated that there’d be many unnerving events in the world including:

  • Wars
  • Rumors of Wars
  • Famine
  • Earthquakes
  • Pestilence
  • False Messiahs

“(5) For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. (6) And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. (7) For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. (8) All these are the beginning of sorrows.” (Matthew 24:5-8)

Christ added that people would be hated for His name’s sake worldwide. The most challenging time that people will face this difficulty will be during the great tribulation described in Matthew 24:15-22. Christ mentioned twice in Matthew 24:9-22 that people will eventually be saved. Matthew 24:13 indicates that those who endure to the end (of the world) will be saved:

“(9) Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake. (10) And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. (11) And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. (12) And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. (13) But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved…(22) And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.” (Matthew 24:9-12, 22)

The time when the elect will be saved shall mark the beginning of the end of the world because the elect will have endured to the end. Matthew 24:29-31 indicates that the elect will be saved immediately after completion of the great tribulation.

“(29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: (30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” (Matthew 24:29-31)

Thus, the end of the world will begin after the end of the great tribulation. The signs associated with the sixth seal will follow (Matthew 24:29, Revelation 6:12-17, Luke 21:25-28, Mark 13:24-27).

The Key Implication

Recall that the parable of the wheat and tares and the Great Commission both show that believers will be on Earth at least until the end of the world. Given that the end of the world will begin after the end of the great tribulation, we can deduce that believers will be on Earth during the great tribulation. Believers will be present on the earth until Christ comes to harvest the earth and save those who endured to the end of the world.

You might be uncomfortable with what I’ve written. Please understand that I am not trying to give you a false sense of security about the end times.

My article “Will Christians See the Antichrist?” also sheds light on how believers will be present on the earth during the end times. If you are skeptical, I urge you to read that article and then reconsider this article.

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69 thoughts on “The Great Commission & End Time Prophecy”

  1. Robert Strickland

    Hi Wayne bought the book, and am presently, going back to the beginning for a refresher because there is just too much valuable information, there are a few things i disagree on but thats ok we are different people, but the best thing is that the book clarifies much of my thinking. I read that it has been 4 Thousand years From Adam to Jesus and 2 thousand years from Jesus to present day as the Psalmist said a day in the presence of the Lord is as a thousand years, and your time line that Jesus ascended to heaven in AD could mean the 6th day is coming to an end, so it could be that we have not too much time left, till lift off, and then the thousand year reign of Christ, represents the 7th day of rest, God created the heavens and the earth in 6 days and on the 7th he rested, its a thought.

    I have struggled with the thought of after rapture, because peeling grapes and a life of nothingness does not excite me, so now i believe the first commission applies, go into the garden and beautify and multiply, when we are changed in a twinkling of an eye it is from corruptable to in-corruptable, no more death neither sorrow, but yes, we still work, phew!!

    Have felt for some time now that the church must suffer not sidestep through the trib, because we learn obedience through the things we suffer, and the great falling away is a sifting of the saints the chaff blown by the wind.

    It is immaterial to me who the beast is, the anti-christ, the harlot, as it is knowing that they will manifest themselves and i will know them by their fruits, it is more important to be ready, but being ready is to know the times we live in, and it is in this that your book is of great significance, the preparing of the saints, asking us to ask the questions. God reveals Himself through his word and He is wanting us to know Him and your book certainly helps, any way enough waffling on by me, looking forward to the comic book version, just kidding. Rob

    1. I’m glad that you found valuable information in my book! There would be a comic book version if I knew how to draw! lol

      Hey, if it’s possible, I’d really appreciate it if you left an honest review on my book on Amazon or the original website you purchased it from because it would help undecided people to understand that my book can be of value to them even if they don’t agree with everything in it.

      1. Robert Strickland

        IMHO this is a book that everyone should read, i have already decided to share my opinions and encourage those i know to buy this book, on my facebook page but i will leave a review on Amazon
        all the best.

  2. Hi Wayne, I’ve read your articles and I love your insight and commentary on many of them. With this one I think you’re close but as soon as we enter great tribulation most believers will be saved. Check Revelation 6 and 7. During 6th seal we will be saved. John all of a sudden in Revelation 7 saw a great multitude of people that came out of the tribulation, as in we are in the great tribulation at the beginning but we’re taken/raptured out of it 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

    Here I will let this guy explain it better for you. https://z3news.com/w/ten-things-that-must-happen-before-the-rapture/
    He really changed my mind, I used to think before trib and after, but please read it. I am open for counter – verses to disprove it, I’m all about learning 🙂

    1. There’s debate about the fulfillment of the events in Revelation 7, particularly the heavenly scene described in verses 9-17. Many think the events of Revelation 7 occur after the events of Revelation 6. However, some argue that verses 7:9-17 focuses on the many people who will die during the great tribulation rather than those who has been rescued from it (i.e. taken/raptured out).

    2. If you would like to hear a different position to consider (I believe Wayne agrees with you – at least I believe he used to), one that is held by a smaller group of people, but is growing, how about the theory that it happens at the last or seventh trumpet, as Paul said it would. That puts it before God’s wrath is poured out according to Revelation. Paul kind of erects a neon sign to point us to the place it happens with his comment. Most everyone ignores the clue though and says that the last trump can’t really mean the seventh trumpet, even though that is the last one mentioned. As if Paul can’t possibly know what he is talking about when he writes it. And to answer that argument that Paul couldn’t possibly know what John would write, well prophecy is weird like that. The Holy Spirit is the author and He did know what He was telling Paul to write. I guess the clue was just too easy for us to swallow? Too obvious to possibly be right? Everyone feels it has to be harder than that. Why we think that I don’t know, but we do. Just as Daniel had no idea what he was writing about, and was told that nobody would understand until the end, so Paul may or may not have understood, but He wrote as directed by the Holy Spirit. Therefore the argument is a non argument. And just because it was made easy, doesn’t mean it is wrong. Plus there is a teaching in Judaism that the Messiah will come at the last trump, and Paul knew that. I’ll explain more as I go on.

      As for the multitude on the sea of glass that come out of the tribulation, those who made their robes white by the blood of the Lamb, I believe Scripture shows that they come out by death, not by rapture. Remember that this tribulation will be like nothing before in history. The death toll will be many millions, just like on the sea of glass. In Rev. 12 after Satan is cast down at the mid-point, it says that he goes after those who have the testimony of Jesus, and this is what is said about them. “And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.” Both groups have mentioned that they are there (made their robes white/overcame) by the blood of the Lamb. I think that is not a coincidence that that phrase is used both times. The overcomers are able to overcome him by death, not by being raptured. They are the martyrs that the fifth seal saints are told they have to wait for. They wait for them to be killed, as they (the 5th seal) were, before God can pour out His wrath and get vengeance for them.

      I realize that in the sixth seal it says that people are yelling that the Day of the Lord has come, but that is people on earth, not heaven, saying this. The catastrophe which is described in that seal are the signs which the O.T. tells us are the signs that herald the Day of the Lord. It says in Joel 2:31 “The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.” They occur BEFORE that day comes, not when that day comes. In Matthew 24, Christ puts those same signs immediately after the great tribulation is cut short. Cut short of what? Cut short of Daniel’s 70th week. This is to allow time for the trumpet and vial judgments. The fifth trumpet alone lasts five months.

      But you might say, in Matthew it says right after the signs that “And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven…” so therefore the rapture is immediately after the tribulation and that group on the sea is the raptured saints. I can see why you might think that if you merely took this one passage alone, but as we know, sometimes you have to look at all the information and not take something out of context. The sentence is that these SIGNS occur immediately after the tribulation. Then it starts a new idea. The word “then” does not have to mean immediately. Yes, immediately after the tribulation those signs occur. In fact it is this cataclysmic event which stops the martyring of the saints, as people will be terrified and running for their own lives, but that doesn’t mean that the word “immediately” also applies to the next verse which starts with “then”. Let me give an example. I used to be a teacher. If I said to you, IMMEDIATELY after the school year is over, I will be going to a seminar, and THEN I will be taking a vacation. With only that much information, you will probably assume that the day school ends I will go the seminar and that it is a one day seminar and therefore I will be going on vacation immediately after school ends. But what if later on I said to you, oh, I didn’t explain it all to you, did I. The seminar is three weeks long. Now you have more information and you realize your first assumption was incorrect. The seminar happened immediately after school, but the vacation did not. Jesus did not want to give all the information of what would be occurring at the end during the Olivet Discourse, because it wasn’t the time or place for all that info. He was going to give it to John later. So we have to take the former information and put it in the context of the latter information which has Christ gathering the “grapes” after the seventh trumpet is sounded, just before the vials, which are defined as God’s wrath, are poured out.

      God’s wrath is announced by heaven at the seventh and last trumpet (Rev. 11:15-18) when the two witnesses are resurrected (the resurrection occurs before the rapture, and I am guessing they are the first of the resurrected), the world reverts to Christ’s ownership, the Bema Seat judgment is said to have arrived where the dead saints and prophets receive their reward, and God’s wrath has finally come. Chapters 12-13 are interlude chapters, but in chapter 14 we see that the narrative picks up where it left off on 11. (By the way, an angel declares the gospel to all the world in 14, so that is when the gospel is finally preached in all the world). Jesus then comes on the clouds and harvests the saints, (vs. 14-16) the angels harvest the wicked and throw them in the wrath of God (vs. 17-20). This is the resurrection/rapture. It is the separation of the wheat and tares at the END of the age. Then in chapter 15 we see some saints on the sea of glass who are not called overcomers, but who have gotten victory over the mark and image of the beast. One presumes that victory in this case means they weren’t killed, as they are not called overcomers. One group overcomes by death. The other gets victory over the beast. They defeat His agenda. They win the game, so to speak. He has not been able to get to them. They are the special few who were alive and remain, who endured to the END and were raptured. Christ was always saying how He would raise people up at the “last day.” The resurrection precedes the rapture, so the rapture is also at the last day. The last day is at the end of Daniel’s week.

      Back to Revelation Chapters 15 and 16, several times it talks about God’s wrath, how the angels come out of the temple with it and pour it out on the world. It is the second time (the timing being after the 7th trumpet in both cases chap. 11 and here) when heaven declares unequivocally that this is God’s wrath and it has finally come, and that it is being poured out from heaven. The only other place God’s wrath is mentioned is in the sixth seal, but as I said before, that is man reacting to the catastrophes and understanding that these are the signs that will come before God’s wrath comes. People call any tragedy today that is a natural disaster, God’s wrath, so for people to scream it when an extinction event is happening is not a strange thing. God never specified how long before God’s wrath these signs would occur, but they are unmistakable in their magnitude and won’t be confused for anything else other than what God said they were. Hence people saying that God’s wrath is coming. Some heathens may even recognize the signs as being the real Bible signs preceding the real wrath of God, not just throwing the phrase around as they do today with every catastrophe. And it is coming, but not right then. Not until heaven announces it has come. These four blood moons that people were saying were these signs were very wrong. They weren’t even close.

      Added to that is the fact that the seventh trumpet will be blown after the end of the 1260 days of Daniel’s 70th week (you can figure this out by comparing Scriptures), so those who endure to the end of Daniel’s week will be saved. This age goes to the last day, the last day when Christ will raise everyone, and that last day is just before the vials of God’s wrath are poured out to cleanse the earth for the millennium. We are not appointed to wrath, hence the resurrection/rapture at this time. Daniel 12:8 and11 say “And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the END of these things? …….And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.” 1290 days, not 1260. That is 30 days after the 1260 days. The trumpet is sounded after the 1260 days and the vials come after that. That gives God 30 days in which He can pour out His wrath (although it may not take that long), but that will be when the end of all these things comes. After day 1290 it is just the sheep and goat judgment which one assumes will take until day 1335, as that is the day that Daniel tells us that those who reach that day will be blessed. Most likely it is the end of the judgments and the start of the millennial kingdom.

      I can understand that now you will probably say that if we know it is day 1260, then we know the day and hour. Well, not exactly. 1) He does not have to resurrect everyone on day 1260. He could do it day 1261, or 1262. Those length of days (1260, 42 months, 3 ½ years) were given to tell us a) how long the woman will be hidden in the wilderness, b) how long the prophets will preach, and c) how long antichrist will have the power to actually reign before being stripped of his power, not the day of the resurrection. 2) There might be a gap between the resurrection and rapture, as the resurrected go first, so they might not occur on the same day. 3) The earth is not in the same day all around the earth, nor the same hour, so it won’t be the same day or hour for the entire earth no matter when it happens, 4) We know that Christ’s return will have to do with the fall feasts. Many say that it will be on the Feast of Trumpets, because they believe the last trumpet is sounded then. Actually that isn’t quite accurate. On the Jubilee year, the last trumpet is sounded on Yom Kippur to start the Jubilee year, and Christ indicated that His coming would be on a Jubilee year when the captives are set free, etc. The Scripture He quoted in the synagogue when He first began His ministry is a reference to the Jubilee year. It is presumed He will come on a Jubilee year, but I think only God knows what year that really is, in spite of people guessing when it is.

      Yom Kippur is also the Day of Atonement for Israel, which makes sense, as it is at His return that they see Him whom they have pierced (Rev. 1:7, Zech 12:10) and recognize their Messiah and all Israel will mourn and be saved, or receive their atonement, for Israel is not saved until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in (Rom. 11:25-26). As Scripture teaches that the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled 42 months after the abomination (compare Luke 21:20-24, Rev. 11:1-2) that puts Israel’s salvation at the end of Daniel’s 70th week, at the same time as the witnesses job is done (Rev. 11) and the last trumpet is sounded. As the earth will have been removed out of her orbit due to the catastrophic events (Is. 13:13) the calendar will not be valid anymore, (it is presumed that the earth will go back to a 360 day year) and the month of Tishri is not determined until a new moon is spotted and reported (according to God’s rules), and the events will probably leave an ash cloud over the earth, so that a new moon will not be visible to determine what day the month begins. So it will be impossible for anyone but God to know when that day will be. And until you know what day that is, you can’t know when the 10th of Tishri or Yom Kippur will be either. And considering the state of the world at that point after the trumpets, will anybody be looking at a calendar, much less a Jewish calendar? Most Gentiles aren’t even familiar with it.

      These are just some of the reasons I have come to believe the rapture is at the last trumpet. Paul told us it was, and the rest of it is just the proof that Paul was telling us the truth. It is up to you to reach your own conclusions as to what you want to believe.

      1. I am very very thankful for your reply Connie and blessed to talk to someone that knows their bible so well. And it really does make a lot of sense what you’re saying though I do have a couple questions in regards to your reply, not to be rude but to help each other understand God’s word better.

        “By the way, an angel declares the gospel to all the world in 14, so that is when the gospel is finally preached in all the world). Jesus then comes on the clouds and harvests the saints, (vs. 14-16) the angels harvest the wicked and throw them in the wrath of God (vs. 17-20). This is the resurrection/rapture. It is the separation of the wheat and tares at the END of the age.”
        What do you make of this?

        1 Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. 24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power

        As for the last trumpet, they just seem to have different purposes, unless they’re twofold?

        1 Thes 4: 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
        Versus
        Rev 8 2And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.
        6And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

        As I said I really enjoyed and appreciated your long explanation. And I will keep studying what you presented.

        1. Hi Tibi. I never consider questions looking for information to be rude. That’s how we learn.

          I’m not sure what you are looking for in regards to 1 Cor. 15:23. I read it thusly. The context is the order of resurrections, so that is the topic under discussion. Christ was the first of the resurrection. Then the next ones resurrected are those at Christ’s Second Coming. This is referred to in Rev. 20:6 as the first resurrection (after Christ’s of course). If looked at as strictly the context of the resurrection, the third part would refer to the end of the millennium when He delivers the kingdom He has reigned over to God, and puts down for the very last time Satan and his followers at the second resurrection, which is the resurrection of the unbelievers, Rev. 20:7-14. There is no resurrection for believers after Christ’s Second coming, for during the millennium, no believers will die. Christ can deliver the kingdom of believers alive, just as the raptured will be delivered alive, to God. That’s what the healing of the leaves of the trees are for, to keep everyone alive. No need for another resurrection of believers. Is. 65:20 “There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.” People will still be considered children at 100 years of age. If someone dies that young, then they are cursed and sinners. So there are three resurrections. Christ the firstfruits, then Christians at the Second Coming, then those who are a part of the second resurrection of the dead unbelievers at the White Throne Judgment. Those who believe (mainly Jews to start) after the Second Coming will enter into the millennium as the sheep in the sheep and goat judgment.

          As for the trumpet in 1 Thess. and Rev. 8:2, the last trumpet in the group of seven in 8:2 is the same trumpet in Rev. 15-18 and in 1 Thess. It’s purpose is to announce Christ’s becoming King, His return, His resurrecting and rapturing the saints, and it is also the trumpet of call to war (per se) against the wicked in God’s wrath. It is a many fold trumpet in that it signals all of the above, for we are told in Scripture that all of these things will occur at the same time at the blast of the trumpet which appears to be the seventh trumpet. Rev. 11 outlines all of the things that seventh trumpet announces. The announcing in Rev. 11:18 that the time has come to reward the saints and prophets is the announcement of the resurrection/rapture, for that is what has to occur in order to have the rewards ceremony. Verse 17 tells us that He is starting to reign as King. We know that both of those things occur at His Second Coming, as does His wrath which is also announced in verse 18. All of these things occur at the seventh and last trumpet that is mentioned in Scripture. 1 Thess just lists one of those things, for that is what Paul was discussing at the time.

          If I am missing what you are inquiring about, just please explain a little more what you are looking for in the way of an answer.

          1. Thank you again Connie, I read and studied and prayed, And I came to that same conclusion, 7th Trumpet is the rapture. What do you think timing of the 7th trumpet is? It sounds like we will be in the Great Tribulation, but is it at the end? When are the Vials poured? After the Great Tribulation or during? Also do you know who the 24 elders are in Revelation 5 that are redeemed by Jesus’ blood out of every nation, tongue?

            And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

            9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

            10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

            11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

            Thank you , as always.

          2. Never mind on some of those questions as you’ve answered them in your very first reply with Daniel 12:8

          3. After a lot of prayer and a lot of study, I believe the 24 elders are the order of priest/kings to which Melchizadek belongs. I wrote a long article on this which I won’t share here, but to make a long story short, if you examine all the things said about him in Hebrews, it appears from the description he is not a human, but a created being that worked as the priest between God and man before the Levites, as did the others in his order. He had no parents, no children, no beginning of days (birth) no end of life (death) and remains a priest forever (abides continually) even though retired, as Christ is the final priest in that order. As his order is the one to whom Christ belongs we should look to Christ’s priesthood to define Melchizadek’s order’s method of intercession. Christ is a heavenly priest who spent time on earth, but does His priestly work in heaven. He is the mediator between God and man as were the Aaronic priesthood before Him, and the order of Melchizadek before them. We are told that the reason the tabernacle’s dimensions, etc. were all so specific is that they were a pattern of the real thing in heaven. Well, the one thing we forget about is that the temple down here had 24 courses of priests to operate it. Heaven must also have priests. Christ is now the one working. Think about these elders (which is what one would call a retired priest or minister), they sit before the throne indicating their work is finished and they are just there to worship. They have crowns (are kings – Melchizadek was the king and priest of Salem (Jerusalem)). There are 24, a significant number given that there were 24 courses of priests in the temple which had to be patterned after something in the heavenly temple. They cannot be human if they have no birth, death, or parents. They are priests continually, as that is their title, even though not doing the actual work of a priest as Christ is now the High Priest.

            When the song is sung and it says the words “thou hast redeemed us”, it causes many to believe that the 24 must be spiritually representative of the Church, but that is not necessary. Because all that is mentioned is the elders and beasts and angels, it is assumed that this is all who are there. But remember, all who have died in Christ are also in heaven even before the resurrection. While not mentioned in particular, they have to be those tens of thousands upon thousands, for it specifically says that those singing will be priests and reign on earth with Christ. That is us. They are redeemed, and so they will sing about it. And in fact, the entire creation is redeemed by His blood, is it not? So they can all sing this song. Was not the entire creation corrupted by sin? Is it not restored to its original state at the end because of Christ’s sacrifice? It is not only us who are redeemed. All of creation is, even if not redeemed from sin in exactly the same way we are. They gain back to their Lord what has been lost by sin.

            Does that make any sense to you? I know it is a kind of new concept that is not taught in the mainstream.

          4. It absolutely does, it is a difficult one but wow. You’re amazing and thank you again. I pray you are given even more wisdom and peace, and love. I sometimes keep coming back here to re-read our conversation so it gets stuck in my head as it is a new concept.

          5. I do have another question, at the 5th trumpet will the scorpions hurt only those who do not believe in God ? Will the 144000 be safe or us Christians too?

          6. Thank you for the compliment. It is all God, believe me. The 144,000 are sealed for protection with the seal of God. Christians have the seal of God as well,(2 Cor. 1:21-22 ” Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.”) which is why Satan has his followers get sealed with his name or number or mark. He’s an imitator. We should be safe during that time.

            In relation to that, I tend to believe that America is Babylon as at least at the moment she is the only one who truly fits the profile that Scripture describes. Babylon is also called the hindermost or last of the great nations (at least so far) which is how Jeremiah (50-51) describes the daughter of Babylon. Note the word daughter. It seems to imply that she is not the original or literal ancient Babylon but another incarnation.

            It also says in Jeremiah that Israel will flee from the sword and go to Babylon, and from there they are then later told to flee Babylon and to look to Jerusalem (just as we are told to flee Babylon in Revelation) and go back there before He destroys Babylon. In Revelation it says that the woman flees to the wilderness on the wings of an eagle. Since this is not literal, it could be a reference to America (if she is Babylon) helping people escape when antichrist overflows the land. Our military could evacuate quite a few if they saw trouble coming. The flood mentioned in Rev. 12 would give time to help the Jews escape. Someone has argued with me that America is not a wilderness, but in a way we are. We certainly were when this was written, but in reality a great deal of our country is wilderness. The vast forest parks, the uninhabitable mountains, the deserts, the plains that are used for grazing or farming, the rural areas. So much is not really populated.

            I am hypothesizing that this five months will be a time when the Jews and any remaining Christians can flee Babylon and get back to Israel, as the rest of the world will be under persecution and pain from these demonic hordes and not care about them or try to stop them. Just a guess of course.

          7. I believe it’s all God 🙂 with the wings of an eagle I believe is supernatural protection, and we have evidence in Exodus 19:4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles’ wings, and brought you unto myself.

            I used to believe America as well, but it’s more of a speculation, and we do have most answers in the Bible.
            Isaiah 40:31
            31 But they that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.
            Finally God will give “eagles wings” to the residue of the inhabitants of Jerusalem who didn’t run but instead “waited” in Mount Zion at Christ’s return at the end of the “Great Tribulation” (Isa 40:31

            I do believe Babylon could be US as well, but still studying that doctrine. And knowing we are sealed makes me feel better. But who knows how I will feel at that time, maybe like Stephen wanting God to take my Spirit unto Him.

          8. I go back and forth between wanting to make it to the rapture and not wanting to go through the horrors, as I don’t know that I qualify to make it to the rapture. Most Christians will be killed and not in a nice way. It might be easier to go now than go during the tribulation. Once you get past that, God will probably protect those who are left from the sixth seal and the trumpets, but nobody knows who gets to be in that group who survives. There are seven churches and only one of them are given the promise to be kept through the tribulation. And even all the people in that church don’t qualify. Only the overcomers. I guess what God has planned for each of us is what will be.

          9. Hey Connie, I thought you mentioned you have a website or you write articles about this type of stuff? Do you have one?

          10. Yes, Tibi, I have two blogs. I don’t promote them here, since this is his site, but Wayne has on occasion posted them so I don’t think he’ll mind if I give them to you. One is http://endtimesstudies.blogspot.com// On this site I stay strictly with eschatology and it is chronological, beginning with prophecies and pertinent information starting in Genesis, then continuing up through Revelation. Then I go topical. It has been a while since I’ve written on that one, but it is a progressive Bible study so to follow it you need to go to the archives and begin with the oldest post and work your way forward. The other site is topical and is http://bibleconundrumsandcontroversy.blogspot.com. Just cruise the archives for topics. Some of the topics are eschatological in nature and others are just doctrinal. Hope that helps.

  3. You have made two excellent points. You might want to consider also that the “end of the world” does not mean what most English speaking people today are teaching. When the book of Matthew was written in approx. 55-57 AD the world meant something completely different to those who heard and read Matthew. See the post “Frequent Mistakes Part IV – Where was “All the World” at my blog https://ShreddingTheVeil.org.

  4. There are a lot of Elite Jews also in Americal. They claim they are jews but they are not, they are of the synagogue of satan. They control the banks (rothschild), politics(skulls and Bones, Freemasonry), entertainment industry(illuminati), religious belief system (cabal, infiltrating the churches) of America and the world.

    1. Yes, there are many Jews (by ethnicity) among the Illuminati. And there are a great many non-religious Jews who are not of the Illuminati. But that has no bearing on the God-fearing Jews who will accept Christ upon seeing His return and enter into the millennium as Messianic Jews. They will not only be Jews by ethnicity, but spiritual Jews as well, true sons of Abraham by faith. They are the ones that God will keep out as a remnant, the woman in the wilderness, (Rev. 12) that gets protected for 3 1/2 years.. A lot of Jews will be killed during Daniel’s 70th week (just as a lot of Christians will also be killed and only a small remnant make it to Christ’s return), as so many of them have forsaken God, but there is a believing (belief in God, but not yet Christ) remnant who are looking for their Messiah Then God brings 1/3 of those who make it up to that point (Christ’s return) through His wrath. Zech. 13:8 It is quite a culling.

    2. I have been wondering about this very subject myself, Eaglet. It does at least seem to me that there could be a group of fake Jews in the world. Even when you look at Scripture and consider what Christ said in the Woes of the Pharisees, you sort of go, “hmm…” – or at least I do. Those are some pretty strong words there for sure.

      1. The babylon spirit lived and passed on through the Pharisees. That’s why they crucified Jesus and persecuted His followers. And the Spirit of the Pharisees lived on through those who say they are Jews but they are not but of the Synagogue of Satan, which the babylon spirit originated from satan. Kabalah is of babylon origin.

        1. No disagreement with that. Just as long as you don’t paint all Jews that way. Many Jews are Messianic. Others are truly God-fearing Torah abiding Jews. Do they have some pagan traditions in there, yeah, but so does Christianity by the tons. Most people observe the traditions without thinking about it. I had a debate just this past Sunday in the church I attend over Christmas as I held that it is a pagan holiday with a Christian veneer and that Christ wasn’t born then. I lost the argument, as they have no ear for truth.. And yes, I also observe the Sabbath. Just no Sabbath observing churches around here to go to, so I do both.

      2. Watchman,

        Check the 7 churches in Rev. 2 & 3, It is clear that the enemy of christians are the fake Jews. they are the ones who had persecuted the christians and the real natural jews ever since and until now. They (Jesuits, Vatican, Revived Roman Empire) even created Islam (the other foot, originated from the East Byzantine Empire) to persecute God’s people for themselves. They are the Apostate Jerusalem, who has the Spirit of the Pharisees and the Spirit of Babylon; Mystery Babylon; the Great Whore; the Great City SPIRITUALLY called Sodom and Egypt where the Lord Jesus was crucified. Rev. 11:8. Sodom spirit is adultery and Egypt spirit is Idolatry. That is why in the end there will be a New Jerusalem as the redemptive replacement of the Adulterous, Idolatrous, and Apostate Jerusalem, who was once the Wife of God before.

    1. Actually in my KJV, it does say daughter of Babylon, specifically virgin daughter of Babylon. For me, the reference is to the nation Babylon is controlling. The nation or kingdom is the spirit’s daughter. In this case, I think it is America, as unlike other nations of the world, she has never been conquered (since becoming the nation of America) so is a virgin in that sense. She’s never been raped by any nation. In Jeremiah 50:12 the nation Babylon controls at the end is said to have a mother nation, and is called the hindermost of all the nations. In Hebrew the word “hindermost” means last or end, so it would be the last greatest nation. America had a mother (England) unlike many other nations of the earth (Canada and Australia would also fit that description though) and is the last of the greatest nations on earth (at least at this time), so both of these things point to America too.

      1. That’s good stuff. I’ve never thought about it all the way through from that perspective. It makes a lot of sense, though. Thanks.

      2. Do you think Babylon, spirit of, will be inhabiting America when she (Babylon) is ultimately destroyed? Or do you think that America will just be destroyed and babylon wil return to the plains of Shinar for her final destruction?
        Your reasoning is the same as mine about America… and you didn’t even mention our culture!
        When Trump made one of his speeches- he said something about how no other nation on Earth could touch us, the most powerful ect. ; it did bing to mind the verse about how she will boast that she has never been made a widow.

        1. Lauren, I thought I had written an answer to this, but I see after a day or so it has not shown up in the comments, so I guess I didn’t push the post button before moving on to another website, so I will try again. (A word to Wayne, if I did, and you are reviewing things before they are posted and just didn’t review it to post, you can delete that one and leave this one)

          Yes, I do believe Babylon will be seated on America when she is destroyed. There are several reasons why, but one of them is because of Zechariah 5, in the passage about the woman “wickedness”. I believe that refers to Babylon, as nobody is a greater woman of wickedness than she. It says she is established in Shinar, which was where the Tower of Babel was. That America with her multi-languages and arrogance to think she can build her own tower to reach God, is a good description of spiritual Shinar, cannot be missed. This woman is established there on her OWN base.

          Babylon as a priestess of a religion has ridden on the bases, or political powers of the beast most of her life, but in the end she is established on her own base. Her own political power. Revelation shows us that the ten cronies of the beast destroy her for him, which shows the animosity between them at the end. In fact I believe it began much earlier, possibly at the time of Christ’s death, and already existed at the time of Hitler, who I believe was the 7th head of the beast and was possessed by him. (I believe she established her political base in America in 1776) I know some prophecy teachers have taught that Babylon is the Catholic church, but I believe she is much broader in scope. I believe her political base is America, but her religion is Freemasonry, which can be found in all churches and all organizations – political and otherwise, and all countries. One thing that helps me believe that the beast and Babylon are already at odds is that Hitler was intent on killing all the Freemasons. In the light of knowing that he was possessed by evil, and that Freemasonry is a false religion, why would he go after these people? Are they not on the same side? I believe it was because they are Babylon’s minions. The beast will need his own religion to fanatically control his people, which I believe will be Islam. The jihadist attitude of that religion seems to be just his style. And nobody hates America more than the Muslim jihadists.

          I didn’t bother mentioning our culture, because that seems pretty obvious given the description of her in the Bible.

  5. Eaglet, I’m afraid that you have lost me. I have absolutely no idea what point you are trying to make about these angels. I have no idea why the identity of these two angels is such a stumbling block for you. Their identity isn’t relevant to the events. They are just servants carrying out the task of showing John the future. I do not see how the identity of the angels affects this in any way or why this seems to be such a matter of importance for you. Their identity has no bearing on the events whatsoever except that they will carry out God’s plan and they inform John of what is going on. Think of them as tour guides. It isn’t the guide that is relevant, it is the tour. And all of this is yet future so I’m not understanding your comment “What if Jesus is telling us that it was these two angels who witnessed what had happened to the Bride and the Great Whore back then during their time?” There was no “what happened ……back then during their time” as these are visions of the future. There is no time in heaven, so showing John the future isn’t a big problem. For God all time exists at once – past, present, and future. Perhaps if I give you an example of how this concept became tangible for me you will understand better.

    At the college I attended, in the foyer of the chapel an artist had painted a mural that went around the perimeter of the room at the top of the walls just below the ceiling. He started at Genesis and painted scenes from the Bible in chronological order ending with the events of Revelation being right next to Genesis, as this wrapped all around the entire room. From the center of the room, I could see every event of history at the same time. If the mural were alive, I could have seen all of history occurring simultaneously, yet I would see how the events of one section would be affecting the events of a later historical event, yet they would be happening at the same moment from my perspective. I could see Adam and Eve and the Lord’s Second Coming occurring side by side. Well that is how God sees our history. Now if I wanted someone in the mural to see the future, all I would have to do would be pluck them out of the mural and stand them beside me where they could see the future just as I could. Now, my identity (if I were the angel doing this) would be of little consequence. What is important is the events occurring in the mural. I may interact with that mural (by doing things), but that still would not make my identity be of any significance to those events. I would merely be God’s servant, carrying out His orders.

    I will again explain the reason Jesus says ” BEHOLD, I COME AS A THIEF! Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.” The other times that Christ says He will come as a thief, he does not mention about the keeping of the garments. That is because this allusion is strictly a Jewish one, and not meant for the Church. This is a direct allusion to the office of him who was called the prefect or overseer, of the mountain of the temple. His custom was to go his rounds during the watches of the night; and if he found any of the Levites sleeping on his watch, he had authority to beat him with a stick, and burn his vestments. See Middoth, fol. 34,1, and Tamid. fol. 27,2; 28,1. Such a person being found on his return home naked, it was at once known that he had been found asleep at his post, had been beaten, and his clothes burnt; thus his shame was seen – he was reproached for his infidelity and irreligion.

    This is inserted just before Armageddon for the sake of the remnant of Israel that makes it through the wrath of God to go into the millennium. The Church is gone by then. They go up at the last trump, just before the vials are poured out. Israel does not come to know her Savior until they see Christ come to rapture/resurrect the saints. Paul tells us in Romans that when the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled (Luke 21 and Rev. 11 help you to understand that this will occur 1260 days after the abomination of desolation or at the last trump when the Church is taken away), all Israel will be saved (Rev. 1:7, Zech 12:8-12). When they see Jesus come and take the saints, and realize that He was indeed the Messiah, they will be left behind, but they will believe in Him. At that point, they will rush and grab the New Testament to see what is supposed to occur, and will see that the vial judgments await the world.

    Jesus needs for them to have hope that they have not been abandoned, as they are just now realizing the truth and will start studying the New Testament, so He leaves them this message in verse 15 which is clearly a JEWISH message. He will come again as a thief to the world, for the world will not be expecting Him to return yet again, but they are to stay awake and keep themselves ready for His return, just as the Church is warned by the parable of the virgins with the extra oil, to be ready to await His return. They initially will think that His coming at the last trump to gather His people was it, and that this is just the end of the world when all these vials are poured out. Without this message directed to them, giving them hope of His return (at Armageddon), Israel would not have the hope to get them through, while they also suffer these vial judgments. Just as we know He will come as a thief to the world, but we will know He is coming, He will come as a thief to the world a second time, but now Israel will be expecting Him to return for them. Only this time He will stay and set up His kingdom on earth for them and the small remnant of Gentiles in the nations that have not taken the mark. I hope this finally explains for you why this message is found here in this passage.

    Mystery Babylon, Babylon the Great, and the Great Whore are all the same spiritual entity. She has controlled various kingdoms and nations and religious organizations through the years, but it is the same spiritual entity. Right now it is my belief, from the description given in the Old and New Testament that America is her headquarters from where she controls the various kings of the earth.

    1. Very informative, Connie. I have a question about Isaiah 47, where it talks about the daughter of Babylon. What do you think about what it says there? Is the ‘daughter’ of Babylon a different spiritual entity from Babylon herself? Thanks.

    2. From the passage below, do you agree that the seventh angel who poured the seventh vial judgement witnessed the judgement of Great Babylon?

      Rev. 16:17-1817 And the SEVENTH ANGEL poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

      18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

      19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and GREAT BABYLON came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

      If you agree? Can you now say that the angel who holds the seven vials and who introduce Great Babylon is the seventh angel?

      Rev 17:1
      17 And there came ONE OF THE SEVEN ANGELS which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the GREAT WHORE that sitteth upon many waters:

      Can it be the same then for the Sixth Angel and the Bride? Which the very text composition of Rev. 21:9 compared to Rev. 17:1 is almost exactly the same, only the subjects are different.

      This is exactly my point. They are witnesses.

      1. Sorry, no I can’t say for certain which angel it is that introduces Babylon or the Bride, for there were seven of them. They are ALL witnesses as is everyone else in heaven. Were you under the impression that only the one angel sees the destruction of Babylon or the Bride? Rev. 18;21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all. (which angel is this?) Rev. 19:1-2 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God: For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

        Everybody witnesses the destruction of Babylon, not just the angel speaking. And nowhere does it insist in the text that it has to be the seventh angel. It is ONE of the angels, just as later it is ONE of the angels. But so what? I can’t see what your point is. If you are saying that these are the two witnesses of Rev. 11, you are way off base. For some reason you seem to believe that the identity of these two angels is of some paramount importance in the scheme of things, but they aren’t. They are simply two angels showing John something. Whatever your point is, it totally is escaping me. Everybody in heaven is a witness to these events, not just the angels. So what is your point about them being witnesses? I can’t seem to grasp what it might be. You are going to have to explain why you think they are significant more than just to say that they witness the events. Of course they do. And so does everybody else in heaven. As I said earlier, heaven has no time, so what John sees is occurring in the future and everybody in heaven is witnessing it as it happens, just as John is.. The two angels hold no importance in that respect.

        1. I am not implying that they are the two witnesses of Rev.14 or 11. I am saying that they were there and this is their very part/task at the end time plan, when the very momentous and significant thing had happened to both the Bride and the Great Whore. So who could be a better witness than these two. It is like in a crime investigation, it is the witness that is summoned to pinpoint the suspect because the witness was there and saw the crime happened.

          Jesus is making a valid decision to choose these two angels and somehow giving us the clue of the timing of the rapture/resurrection of the Bride and the judgement of the Great Whore. f these two is irrelevant, Jesus could have just chosen the mighty angel or a regular angel.

          If you say it could be the other angel of the seven other than the seventh angel, then let’s check the other six angels if there are a hint that they have anything to do with the Bride or the whore during the time they pour out their vials respectively.

          The Great Whore is exactly the opposite of the Bride. They were dealt with successively. Just rightly so, after Jesus snatch and stole away the Bride as a thief, then He turn and dealt with the Whore immediately as a judge..

          I am not a lawyer, but a lawyer can follow this train of logic. Just like the British Lawyer who proved the resurrection of Jesus by logic. For example, why would the apostles choose to present or mentioned in scriptures as witnesses, the women who saw Jesus resurrected, if women’s testimony in jewish culture has no bearing at all, they will easily be discredited.

          1. If the apostles saw that this will discredit their claim, they could have not mentioned the testimony of the women at all.

            Jesus chose these angels because they are relevant to the Bride and the Whore. They definitely has something to do with what happened to the Bride and the Whore.

            The Seventh holds the Seventh Vial which contains the judgement of the Whore.

            The Sixth Angel holds the Sixth Vials which is the judgement of those who were found naked after the Bride was snatched and stolen away, the wheat was then separated from the Tares. The Wheat are blessed and the Tares will be judged.

          2. The timing of the rapture is clear if you just let Scripture tell you when it is. Paul said it is at the last trump and you find it at the seventh trump. When you put all the pieces of the puzzle together you find that the last trump comes after the 1260th day at the end of Daniel’s 70th week. You don’t need the angels to pinpoint that, because it is very clear when you study the Scriptures. At the last trump the mystery of God (the church) is finished. The kingdoms of the world become Christ’s. The dead are resurrected and judged at the Bema Seat and rewarded. God’s wrath has come. Pretty clear as to what is going on. We see the rapture occurring in Rev. 14, after the interlude of the 12th and 13th chapter. just before the vials of the seventh trumpet are poured out.

            Now as for timing of Babylon’s demise the angels aren’t needed to pinpoint that either, Scripture tells you when it happens. First of all, the O.T. lets us know that before Babylon is totally destroyed for all time, she is come upon by the other nations and overrun at the instigation of “the kings of the Medes”. I am assuming that will be ISIS and fanatic Muslims at the forefront of this with the king of the north whom some say is Russia. I’m not going to get into a discussion of that identity here. I am guessing that this invasion is the first fall, which occurs in Rev. 14:8 which has to come after the sealing of the 144,000 (which occurs after the end of the great tribulation) as they are mentioned, but before the rapture as that occurs a few verses later. That is why God tells us both (the remnant Christians and Israel) in Rev. and in Jeremiah to come out of her and head to Jerusalem, because that occurs before the rapture, which occurs in 14:14. I think the destruction in 17:16 probably has to do with this fall since it is the work of the 10 kings which I believe will be an Islamic coalition, hence the kings of the Medes. Then we see that her total annihilation comes at the end of the vials in 16:19 at God’s hands. This isn’t just a fall from greatness and power at the hands of other nations, this is complete obliteration from the face of the earth by God.

            I do not see any reason to add to Scripture and make the angels be a specific one from the seven to try to determine some timing when timing can be determined by simply reading Scripture. I honestly still don’t see how their identity would determine timing anyhow. If it were the seventh and last angel, why not just say, and the last angel or the seventh angel. It is specifically left ambiguous. I would not convict anyone in a court of law on the evidence you are saying is so logical. I have no problem with it being the seventh, I just don’t see it specified as such. Nor do I need it to be to understand what is going on and the timing of events. I see that you are wanting it to be the seventh angel and so you see it that way, but I see it as God saying, “one of ” indicating that I don’t need to know which one. As chapter 17 & 18 are interlude chapters, like 12 and 13, I don’t look to them to pinpoint a time. They are background info to fill in information. Granted when John is shown her history, she has just been destroyed, but the point of the chapter is to tell us her history so we can know who she is. We already know she has just been destroyed. No need to know which angel is talking to know that, nor to know that it is at then end of it all.

            Chap. 19 shows you what transpires in heaven while the last of God’s wrath on Babylon and the world is being poured out, then it describes Armageddon and Chap. 20 continues on from that point. Once all of that scene is finished, then it is time to show John New Jerusalem so he can describe that. Revelation is for the most part chronological, but there are times when God has to stop and fill in information. New Jerusalem shows up for us to go to upon being raptured, but it isn’t described until chapter 21 as it isn’t a part of all the activities going on, on earth. When there is so much information to impart, you have to divide it up and cover it in sections, which is what God does, but where chronology is important to maintain, God maintains it. He fills in information in between acts (as in scenes in a play) as it were. If your concern is to when Babylon is destroyed, then read chapter 14. You need to get out of her before then.

          3. Even Paul did not clearly said it is a trumpet judgement, only a last trumpet call.

            I did’nt know you are a Midtribber. But Matthew 24:29-31 clearly put the trumpet call at the gathering together of the elect after the Tribulation of those days. The pouring of the Seven Vials Judgement is still part of the Tribulation.

            Matthew 24:29-31

            29 “But immediately AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from [r]the sky, and the powers of [s]the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and they will GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

          4. Eaglet, I am not mid-trib as can be seen, were you to study what I have written in all these posts, but either you have much to study to learn eschatology well enough so that you can understand what I am saying, or you are merely trolling and trying to waste my time. Either way, I have reached the point that I reached some time back when I decided that trying to explain things from this point of view is a futile effort. So I think I will stop now.

  6. eaglet, I am answering your question here rather than down at your question, for it has gotten to the state where our answers are one letter underneath another which is impossible to read. I had to copy and paste in Word to even read what you said.

    I don’t really know why I am trying to explain this again, for I do remember engaging you in debate once before and you weren’t really interested in hearing it, but since you persist, I will try once more to explain. First of all, you are right, there is no pre-trib rapture. Neither Wayne nor I hold to that view so if that is what you are thinking, you haven’t read our posts.

    Here is my view (not necessarily Wayne’s) on the events of Revelation. The first five seals correspond to the things said to be the “beginning of sorrows” in Matthew 24. I am not going to speculate here when they begin, for Christ did say that we should not be concerned, because “the end is not yet.” In the fifth seal we see martyrs who are complaining that God is not exacting His vengeance for them and they are told that they have to wait for the others who must die as they have, for God to exact His vengeance (or wrath). This blows the whole idea that the seals are God’s wrath as pre-trib says, for 1) only Christians are suffering which is against the Scripture that says Christians are not appointed to God’s wrath, and 2) it says that God’s vengeance or wrath cannot come until at least after the rest of the martyrs (from the tribulation) are killed. The next thing is the sixth seal, which in Matthew is said to come after the great tribulation is cut short (of the 3 ½ years). While people in that seal are screaming in fear that God’s wrath has come, because Scripture says that these signs will precede God’s wrath, that does not mean that God’s wrath is actually beginning yet, for heaven has not announced it yet. These signs merely precede it, but we are not told how far in advance they precede it.

    Pre-wrath believes (because in Matthew 24, Christ says, “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven”) that this means that immediately after these signs of the sixth seal that the rapture will occur. They see the saints on the sea of glass out of the tribulation as being raptured. I disagree. They skip from the words “immediately after the tribulation” to “And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man” to come to that conclusion, but as I have said elsewhere in refuting this idea, that is not what it says. It says that immediately after the tribulation the signs occur, not that immediately after the tribulation Christ returns. It says that “Then” Christ returns. “Then” does not have to mean immediately. If there were nothing else to refer to, that would seem the logical conclusion, but we have Revelation which expands on the period of time that Christ referred to as “then.” If I were to say, “immediately after school ends there is a teacher’s conference I must attend and ‘then’ I am going on vacation, would you assume that the vacation is immediately after school ends? You probably would. But what if in a later conversation I said, “oh, the conference is a month long.” Then you would know that I meant that immediately after school ends, I was going to the conference, but I wasn’t immediately going on vacation, as much had to occur in between during the conference. That is what people are missing in constructing the timeline between Matthew and Revelation. Christ did not fill in all the information for the disciples at that time, because it wasn’t the right time to do that. John would be given this revelation later on.

    So moving on, the 144,000 are sealed and then we see the multitude on the sea of glass that are the ones who have been martyred during the tribulation. They are the ones that the fifth seal martyrs were told they had to wait for. Then the seventh seal is opened. Now to assume that the half hour is a metaphor for a thousand years is to put a private interpretation on it, which Peter emphatically tells us we are not to do with prophecy. We are to take it at its most face value meaning unless we are told otherwise (which we are during the visions of the beast and Babylon). Even if we were to put a spiritual application to the half hour, we are told that a day is as a thousand years with God, so a half hour would not qualify as a thousand years. At best it would be 21 years by that percentage, but as we can see from assembling the timeline of other Scriptures, it isn’t. So we will take it at face value as a half hour.

    The seventh seal which are the trumpets are then blown. The 144,000 have been sealed to not be hurt during at least the fifth seal locusts who torture anyone who does not have the seal of God. When we get to the seventh trumpet, there are several things going on. First we are told that the time for the mystery of God to be finished has come. The mystery of God is the church and the resurrection/rapture. We know that this is so from some other things as well. In Rev. 11 we are first told about the temple and two witnesses. First we are told that there will be no courtyard to this temple, (which the millennial one will have one) so we know that this is the tribulation temple which is just the temple proper or the building with the holy of holies and the outer room of that building where the shewbread and candlesticks were. It won’t take up that much room on the temple mount without the courtyards. Now we are told that this courtyard area and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles for forty-two months. Forty-two months is the amount of time that the beast will reign. To be sure that this is the second half of the 70th week of Daniel about which it speaks, we can look to Luke 21:20-24 “And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.”

    We know from Matthew 24 that the armies encompassing Jerusalem, the abomination, and the directive to flee Judea comes at the middle of the 70th week, when the man of perdition sits in the temple declaring himself to be God. Since it says that from the abomination or midpoint, Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles until the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled, we see this is the same time period as spoken of in Revelation 11. It is a forty-two month period, which means that the Gentiles (antichrist’s armies) will tread upon Jerusalem until the end of Daniel’s 70th week as they being at the abomination. When the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled (at the end of the 42 months) all Israel will be saved, according to Paul in Romans 11:25-27 “For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.” We also know that Israel is saved when they see Him whom they pierced. Zechariah 12:10 “And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.” Revelation 1:7 “Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.” Israel will recognize and mourn for Christ when they see Him come in the clouds to gather His elect. But Christ gathers the elect in the clouds and then takes them to New Jerusalem. He does not come down to earth at that point, as the wrath of God must be poured out and while that is occurring the Bema Seat Judgment will be going on for the saints, as will be seen momentarily.

    Now in conjunction with this we see the two witnesses who prophesy for 1260 days. Which is also 42 months. At the end of that time they will be killed and lie in the street for 3 ½ days. That is the end of the second woe. But we are told during the trumpets that the first woe is the fifth trumpet and the sixth woe is the sixth trumpet, making the third woe, which is to come quickly (not a thousand years later), the seventh trumpet (or seven vials), which must occur at the end of the 42 month/ 1260 days of the second half of Daniel’s 70th week. At that time we are told that 1) the kingdoms of the world have become Christ’s. In Acts 2:34-35, and 3:20-21 it says that Christ cannot return until a) all His enemies (of which Satan, the beast, false prophet and all those who oppose Him are) are made His footstool or completely defeated, and b) He must remain in heaven until there is restitution of all things (when the kingdoms become His again), 2) the time of God’s wrath has finally come, and is announced by heaven (not man) 3) the dead (no resurrection as of yet) will be judged and the saints and prophets will be rewarded (Bema Seat) and 4) God will destroy those who have been destroying the earth (again His wrath).

    Now there is a pause in the narrative so that there can be some background information given about the history of Israel and the beast and Babylon up to this point. It is a sort of “in the meanwhile” narrative to bring everyone’s story to the same point in time like you would do in a novel with multiple characters. We continue where we left off in Chapter 11 when we reach the end of Chapter 14 where the rapture occurs and the wrath of God is commenced in verses 14-20. This rapture is described just as it is described in Matthew 24, Christ coming in the clouds and gathering the elect, and the others gathered to be sent into God’s wrath, so we know it is the same event. Then in Chapter 15, God’s wrath is announced. We then see the saints who had victory over the beast on the sea of glass. In other words, he was not able to kill them. Note that the saints on the sea of glass in Chapter 7 are really overcomers as described in Revelation 12:11 “And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.” They are not victorious in the same manner as the raptured saints (and they will not be a great multitude as the previous group). It is said that God’s wrath is contained in the seven vials that the angels are going to pour out. Several times in Chapters 15 and 16 it repeats that these are the wrath of God, so there is no mistake. So God’s wrath does not occur until the vials. But the rapture occurs just before they are poured out, as we are not appointed to God’s wrath.

    There will be three types of people on the earth during God’s wrath. The 12 or more accurately the 13 tribes of Israel (the Levites are a 13th tribe), the people in the nations who managed to escape taking the mark of the beast, but who were not born again, and those who took the mark. (Zech 14:16 “And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.” Matthew 25:31-46 “When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.”)

    Now, the reason Christ says in Rev. 16:15 “Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.” is for the sake of Israel who saw her Messiah come, and leave again with the remnant of the Church. Now that they believe, they need to know He is returning again to reign over them as promised (for they will run to read the Bible when they see that Christianity was the truth) and that they must walk with Him and not give up and turn away out of despair. He will be coming again as a thief to the world, for the world will not be expecting Him to return once He has gathered His elect and headed to New Jerusalem. (Which will be in orbit around earth.) It will come as a surprise to them. This time, the Bema Seat Judgment will be over and the saints will have been rewarded, so that they are clothed in fine white linen, and when Christ comes down at Armageddon, they will be returning with Him.

    If you look at Daniel 12 you will see that there are several time frames given. The 1260 days, then 1290 days, and then the 1335 days. It is said that from the abomination there will be 1290 days to the end of it all. Since antichrist’s reign ends when Christ returns (2 Thess. 2:8 “And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:”) that is at the end of 42 months. There is another 30 days to bring that to 1290 for it all to be finished, so these vials which are poured out quickly (as compared to the rest of the judgments) will occur within that 30 day period. Then there will be the sheep and goat judgment, and that will bring us to the 1335th day which will be a blessing for the one who reaches it, as that is when the millennium will begin.

    Nowadays most finally realize that Christ’s return will not be at any old time, but will be on the fall feast days. Most think it will be the Feast of Trumpets due to the fact that it is at the last trump. I do not adhere to that exactly. I believe the Feast of Trumpets was to commemorate the trumpets of Revelation which will bring us to the last trumpet. Most years the last trumpet of the year is sounded at the Feast of Trumpets, which is why most believe the rapture will be on that date. What they do not realize is that there is one exception to that. On the year of Jubilee, the last trumpet of the year is sounded on Yom Kippur. In Luke 4:18-19 when Christ began His ministry He went into the synagogue and He quoted a passage from Isaiah 61:1-2, but He did not finish last of the verse which refers to the Day of God’s wrath. The passage refers to the year of Jubilee when captives were set free, land was returned to its original owner and many things happened to free people in various ways. He was announcing that if they would accept it, He was bringing a year of Jubilee to them, for He was going to set them free spiritually, free from Roman rule, etc. But they did not accept Him and He knew they would not, so He left out the end of the passage about His return being on the Day of the Lord, since He knew He would have to come a second time to finish God’s plan. So the ultimate year of Jubilee passed from out of their hands. I believe when Christ returns it will be a year of Jubilee for the world. The ultimate Jubilee. The world will be set free from Satan and sin. Israel will be spiritually redeemed and the land returned to her. Yom Kippur is the day of atonement for Israel. The day when their sins are finally forgiven. It is the day they believe the Messiah will come and the resurrection will occur. I concur. From Tishri 10 (Yom Kippur) to Kislev 25 (Hanukkah) there is 45 days. That is the same amount of time from day 1290 (the end of God’s wrath) to the 1335th day when those who reach it will be blessed. I believe just as God had the destruction of the first and second temples occur on the same day (Av 9) He will restore the temples on the same day (Kislev 25). Hence the blessing.

    From that point on is the millennium. At the end of the millennium we are told that Satan will be let loose and will round most of the world up for a second “Armageddon” or Gog/Magog war. I believe Ezekiel 38 describes this second Gog and Magog war, just as Ezekiel 39 describes the Armageddon war before the millennium. There are two “Armageddon” wars. One before the millennium, and one after it. After that is the Great White Throne Judgment and the second resurrection or the resurrection of the unsaved.

    So hopefully that answers any questions you might have as to how I reconcile all of this. Whether you want to accept and believe it or not is entirely your choice. It is my position, which I have come to after over 40 years of study. And Wayne, I apologize for taking up so much space. Hopefully this will put anything eaglet has to say to me to rest.

      1. Wayne/Connie,

        I do not intend to prove you wrong on your views. My intention is to share my understanding and hoping for you to prove me wrong on my understanding of scriptures that supports my timing of the Resurrection and Rapture. I do respect your in depth knowledge of the scriptures and so to me it would be befitting that you are the ones who could refute my views. Wayne has an impressive way of doing an analysis of certain issues and views, making tabulations, cross referencings, parallels with other scriptures

        Just please test the following Scriptures that I hold on to, if it really does not have any bearing or significance at all:

        Rev. 16:15:
        15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

        My Understanding:
        Look Here I am! I come to Snatch and Steal away….(Other translation is in the future tense, but this one is in the present tense, nd if it is future tense, then the rapture happened just before Christ is coming with the armies of Heaven to bttle with the Antichrist and his armies.)

        If the christians are all raptured in the 7th Trumpet Judgement, then what does this proclamation stands and was for, just right in the middle of a scene where kings and armies were being gathered for the battle of armageddon and the Great Prostitute is about to be judged?

        See this ff. Scriptures i they are of the same essence and substance:

        Rev. 21:9
        9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb’s wife.

        Rev. 17:1
        17 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters: (This happened after the millennium)

        The only thing i see that is common between these two angels is they are both witnesses to the things that had happened to the bride and the great whore during their time. (this happened at the very end of the great tribulation)

        What do you think? is it over speculation and irresponsible twisting of the scriptures?

        1. Correction:

          Rev. 21:9 narration is after the millennium.

          Rev. 17:1 narration is during the end of the great tribulation.

        2. Eaglet, I explained before why Christ says what He does in Rev. 16:15. He is speaking to Israel, not Christians at that point, as they are still here, while Christians have been raptured. Please go back and read my comment again to see what I say. I realize it is long, and you probably missed a lot of what I said as a result, but go over it slowly and you will see that I answered that. And you will see the timeline that I set out there as well.

          I am not really understanding why you are having a problem between Verse 17:1 and 21:9. In each case one of the seven angels of the vials (it doesn’t say that it is the same one, just that is is one of them) is showing John the visions. First the vision of what happens to the whore and then a vision of the city where we will live. Why and how is this a problem? The whore is destroyed before the millennium, according to the narrative, not after. Rev. 14 shows that she falls (her fall comes in stages, see Jer. 50-51, first being overrun and terrorized by her enemies, then later God’s complete destruction at Armageddon) before people are punished for taking the mark of the beast and the rapture. Her complete and thorough destruction occurs at Armageddon when all the nations receive their ends in one final battle when Christ comes back to celebrate His marriage and set up His kingdom on earth. And the vials are poured out before the millennium begins (and before Armageddon and the marriage of the Lamb), to punish the people and start cleansing the earth so things can start fresh. I sense that you are putting them at the end of the millennium for some unknown reason. I see nothing in Scripture that would warrant that. In fact it is just the opposite. It occurs at the time of His marriage which occurs before the millennium. God’s wrath is shown to occur right after the rapture/resurrection in Rev. 14 followed in detail by 15 and 16.

          As I said in my previous comment, the narrative through Revelation sometimes pauses to fill in background information. Chapters 12-13 interrupt the narrative between 11 and 14 to fill in information on Israel, Satan, and the beast, and 17-18 do this for the beast and Babylon, between 16 and 19. 19 picks up where 16 left off, just as 14 picks up from 11, giving you the scene from heaven’s point of view instead of earth’s. Just like in a novel you switch from one scene with certain characters when the writer goes back and fills in information about other characters’ activities that were occurring at the same time. He can’t cover everybody’s activities at the same time or the narrative would be impossible to follow from paragraph to paragraph. Think of it as “in the meanwhile so and so was doing such and such”. God gives us the story of one thing, the goes back and fills in the story of others, then picks up the story for all at the same point and moves forward again. He did this in Genesis with the creation story. First He told the story of the earth’s creation, then He went back and got more specific with man’s creation. Some people see it as two different creation accounts. They aren’t The second is just a more detailed narrative of the sixth day.

          As for the angels that show John these visions, it doesn’t say it is the same angel, it could be, but it doesn’t say. They are simply both from the group of seven that pour out the vials. These are a particular group, apparently, that serve in the heavenly temple, for they come out of it. Why is it a problem that one shows John how the whore is destroyed, and one (possibly the same one) shows him New Jerusalem? I don’t understand the problem that you seem to be indicating. How is it a problem? They are just introducing visions.

          1. New Jerusalem is the Bride and Wife of the Lamb, which is the church, not as a buikding but the body of believers in Christ. Their will be Tribulation saints during the Great Tribulation, not Just Israel or Jews. Why can’t they be part of the rapture if some of them are still alive and remain before armageddon? Jesus said the tribulation will be cut short so that some of the elect will survive. The elect is not only Israel as what Paul and Peter defined. Only Pretribbers claimed that the elect are Israel.

          2. Christians are grafted to Israel because of the promise and the covenant. Salvation is from the Jews. We can never tell if all of us here are descendants from the ten lost tribes of Israel. New Jerusalem by description is very Israel and not by the Seven Churxhes described in Revelation. Even the foundations are from the Apostles which are christians at the same time belongs to the tribe of Judah and Benjamin

          3. New Jerusalem is the city where the Bride of Christ will live. Read Rev. 22 & 22. It describes the city. It’s a whole city, not a building and not the believers. It is the home of the Bride. It is where we will live for all time. It is 1500 miles long, wide, and tall. That is practically the size of the U.S. but then it is also that tall. It is about the size of Pluto. The nations of the world will walk in its light. It is too big to sit on the present earth (which will be the millennial earth). For ALL the nations to walk in its light as Scriptures says, (God’s Shekinah glory will shine out through this crystal city) it can only be orbiting the earth. That would prevent anyone on earth from trying to get into it. We will have the ability to travel just as the angels and Jesus now have. It won’t be a problem for us to go back and forth between it and earth.

            There is no such thing as “Tribulation saints.” That is a term coined by pre-tribbers to describe people who get “left behind” after a pre-trib rapture which does not exist. There is only us, the present saints going through the tribulation where most of us will die. A small portion who meet the qualifications set out in Scripture will survive beyond that to the rapture at the last and seventh trumpet. Anyone who is alive and saved at the time of the rapture, whether Jew or Gentile, will go with Christ as the body of Christ and His Bride, along with all the saints that have ever lived that are being resurrected. The “mystery of God” is the church.In Rev. 10, Christ says that the mystery of God is finished. That is at the time of the lasts trump, when He returns. The Church ends at the time of His Coming, which is why those believe who go through the vials can’t be part of the Church or rapture. They missed it and have to go into the millennial kingdom.

            Those who are left behind at the last trump are the people (some of whom will believe in Christ after they see Him come but miss the rapture), who will live on earth in Christ’s kingdom as His followers. They will procreate and repopulate the earth, both Israelites (all the tribes) and Gentiles. Israel will be the nation of priests to the world finally fulfilling God’s covenant with them. Christ will reign over earth. These people will not die, unless they are executed for justice purposes. It will be as it was before the flood and people will live for centuries. They just won’t have glorified bodies as we will have. The O.T. talks about Christ’s kingdom in Zechariah the last few chapters, and in Isaiah also. At the end of Christ’s reign, Satan will be released to gather up those who have hated being under Christ’s reign and try for another Armageddon which will again fail.

            The great tribulation is cut short of the 1260 days of the second half of Daniel’s 70th week. That is because the sixth seal through the sixth trumpet have to fit into the time period between the end of the great tribulation and the 1260th day. Those who did not die in the tribulation will have to endure the trumpet judgments while they wait for Christ. That is why the Virgins in the parable had to have extra oil. He’s not coming back right away. We have to endure to the end.

            Just toss out what pre-tribbers say. They have so much wrong.

          4. Yes, Christians are grafted into spiritual Israel. Salvation came through the Jews, but is of Christ. The descendants of the lost tribes probably do think they are Gentiles. So what. That makes no difference with salvation. There is no Jew or Gentile, no rich or poor, no male or female differentiation when it comes to salvation in Christ. There will be 144,000 of the 12 tribes sealed, but God knows who the tribes are and where to find them. Not a problem.

            The Church as it should have been, would have been the fulfillment of Judaism. It was never meant to be a separate religion as it has become. We are Judao-Christians. Or at least we should be. Some of the rules have changed, such as we no longer have to observe the ceremonial or judicial laws (however the moral laws still apply). Just as Satan got the leaders of Judaism to paganize it, and add tons of laws that God never imposed, the Church has become very paganized over the centuries and changed what God expects of us. Only if you really study the Bible do you really know what God expects of us as Christians.

            There is no problem with New Jerusalem having the foundations of the tribes and apostles. It’s all the same faith. Salvation has always been by grace through faith, not by keeping the law. It’s all one long plan of salvation from Genesis to Revelation, so I see no problem with the way the city is constructed.

          5. If you think the words “one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues”, is not significant at all, then here are my own Bible Translation Version:

            Rev. 21:9
            9 And there came unto me an ANGEL, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb’s wife.

            Rev. 17:1
            And there came one an ANGEL, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

            i hope I am not violating this Scripture:

            Rev. 22:19 KJV
            19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

          6. If there were a group of seven baseball players and I was standing there, and I didn’t know their names, and I said to you that “one of the players gave me a tour of the locker rooms,” and then I told you a whole lot about the locker rooms and then I described some other stuff, and then I said to you “one of the players showed me around the ballpark”, tell me, is it the same ball player? If I were relating this, no, it would not be the same ballplayer. If it were, I would say “then THE ball player,” meaning the same one. By saying “one of the players” a second time, for me at least, I would be indicating a different ball player. But that’s just how I would write it. I don’t think you can be absolutely dogmatic either way. To do so IS to add to Scripture. You have to just take it as is and not assume anything. It could be, and it might not be the same angel. You can’t know for sure from the way it is written, but if I had to lean one way, I would say it is a different angel, because there is no indication it is specifically the same one. Just to say “one of” is to simply mean, one of the seven, not necessarily the same one.

          7. What if Jesus is telling us that it was these two angels who witnessed what had happened to the Bride and the Great Whore back then during their time? In the case of the Bride was the rapture and resurrection, for the Great Whore/Mystery Babylon was the punishment/judgement.

            The clue that tells which angel of the seven introduced the bride is in Rev. 16:12-15.

            12 And the SIXTH ANGEL poured out his VIAL upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

            13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

            14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

            KJV 15 BEHOLD, I COME AS A THIEF! Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
            (What did Jesus came here for? To warn only those who had taken the mark or the remnants? What was the Blessing for?)

            In the case of the angel who introduced the Great Whore/Babylon is in Rev. 16:17-19

            17 And the SEVENTH ANGEL poured out his VIAL into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

            18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

            19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and GREAT BABYLON came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

            (Is Great Babylon the Great Whore also of Rev. 17:1 and the Mystery Babylon of Rev. 17:5?)

  7. Once I had an opportunity to speak about an end time topic in front of church. When I read the well-known passage from Matthew 25 “Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh” I told them, if you now feel you need to repent, do not repent because the Lord could come back any day. Repent because He could also come back *later* than you’d think. Pretribulationists say it right that you need to be ready right now. But it shouldn’t be forgotten that you also must be ready to wait more than you’d expect. And which of the two is more difficult? Being ready to leave before major bad things happen, or keep being ready while major bad things happen, in hope of interruption at one point? Of course, the latter one. For me, the parable of the ten virgins means this exact thing.
    Afterwards, a few of them came to me and admitted, they’ve never thought about it from this aspect. You know, to carry oil enough to make light all night long if need be.

  8. Your article is really clear and summarizes what I also believe regarding the end times and the coming of Christ. It should be so clear for everyone if we could read the Bible without adding any assumptions that are not there in the text.
    “I disagreed with much of what the speaker taught concerning Bible prophecy, and while listening, I thought of passages and verses that refuted what he taught. However, I did not challenge the speaker as he taught out of respect. Nevertheless, it was an unpleasant experience for me because I was witnessing people learning and accepting unsupported teachings about the end times.” –> such a familiar experience for me. I hope God has a plan for the church regarding this issue because there are so many fine brothers and sisters I love & I’m concerned about who I think have an incorrect understanding about our future in this world.
    I’m committed to spread these insights but you’re really right about mentioning speakers teaching out of respect. In today’s church, you can have a very hard time trying to publicly disagree with men of respect. Most people will not even listen to your arguments.

    1. I’ll add that another reason why I did not challenge the speaker in front of everyone is that his main goal of talking about Bible prophecy was actually trying to give people urgency to get right with God and for unsaved people to get saved. I’ve seen the Lord use Bible prophecy teachings that I disagree with to save people. If I had undermined the speaker’s credibility in front of everyone, I could have disrupted an ongoing effort to save people.

      1. I totally understand. I don’t know how many times I’ve had to bite my tongue in Bible studies and Sunday School to keep from saying that what is being taught is a lie. I keep praying that God will open a door to show the truth in a way that is non-confrontational, and not disrespectful to authority. I often thing that it will take getting into Daniel’s 70th week and having them realize that what they are expecting is not going to happen before I can say anything.

        I’m not sure but I think that you are still of the pre-wrath sixth seal rapture, correct? One of the things that keeps being pointed out to me as a proof of this view, is the passage in Matthew where it says immediately after the tribulation of those days Christ will appear. What I keep coming back to and pointing out in return is that it does not say that immediately after the tribulation Christ will come. It says immediately after the tribulation the sun will go dark and the moon will not give its light. THEN the Son of Man will appear. If I were to say, immediately after the school year, I am going to a teacher’s conference and then on vacation, I am not telling you how long the gap between the end of the school year and the vacation is while I am at the conference. Do you assume vacation is immediately after school, and ignore the conference in between as being of no time length? What if I were to much later say that the conference is a month long, and during that time many things will happen, but I didn’t want to elaborate earlier? That is how I see Matthew relating to Revelation. Christ did not give them all the details at the Mount of Olives. The six trumpets come between the sun and moon signs, and the last trumpet at which time it is said that God’s wrath has finally come and the time for the dead to be judged at the Bema Seat has arrived. It would seem this last trumpet (according to Paul it is at the last trump) is the time for Christ’s coming, (at least to me), as it is the time the world is restored to His ownership. It is the time when the mystery of God (the Church/resurrection/rapture) is finished. It is the time when the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled, when Israel will see her Savior and weep for Him and all Israel will be saved. Christ is only coming once, and when He does, He will destroy the man of perdition with His coming, but the man of perdition is not destroyed until his 42 months are up, which is at the seventh trumpet at the end of the 42 weeks, if you check out the math. Christ cannot even. leave heaven until His foes become His footstool and all things are restored, according to Acts 2 & 3, and the restoration is at the last trumpet, according to Rev. 11, when the nations of the world become Christ’s. For those reasons and many more, I see the rapture at the last trumpet (Rev. 11:15-18, and Rev. 14:14). Those on the sea of glass after the sixth seal I see as being those who the fifth seal martyrs were told to wait for that must be killed as they were killed. Hence the tribulation being the worst holocaust in the history of the world. So many dead. The raptured saints I see as being those on the sea of glass in Rev. 15, for they have had victory over the beast, (managed to stay alive) as opposed to having just been overcomers who overcame him by their death (Rev. 12:11) as those mentioned after the sixth seal having come out of the tribulation were. These in Rev. 15 are those who have prayed to be worthy to escape it all, kept the word of God’s patience, kept the commandments of God, have the testimony of Jesus and not denied His name, and endured to the end or the last day (day when the resurrection occurs) – being the last day of this age at the end of the 70th week. God’s wrath begins the new age. At least that is the way I see it happening.

          1. I would love to read an update about your point. Don’t need to be very detailed if you don’t want yet, but I’m curious how you came to the conclusion that you can’t maintain a pre-wrath position anymore.

          2. Several reasons, but I’ll mention one for now. One of the main issues I think Pre-Wrath has is dealing with Antichrist’s 42-month war with the saints. The classic Pre-Wrath position removes the saints far before the end of the 42-month period.

          3. This is not entirely correct Wayne as the two witnesses will remain until the end of the last 42 months. They are also saints. It is wrong to assume that after the rapture that no one else will be saved or turned to God. If this was the case the two witnesses would be wasting time preaching.

            You need to dig a little deeper as things are not so straight forward as people think it is. At every stage God is trying to save people and this applies even after the Rapture which most people can’t fully grasp

          4. The Two Witnessess will preached at the end of the millennium, not during the great tribulation. The 42 months, 1,260 days, and the last half week of Daniel’s 70 Weeks prophecy will happen at the end of the millennium. This is where the Mystery of God will be complete, Israel’s and their holy city’s transgression shall be finished, sin shall be put to end, atonement for wickedness shall be made, everlasting righteousness shall be brought in, vision and prophecy shall be unsealed, and the Most Holy Place shall be annointed. When all power, authorities, and kingdoms will be totally subject to Christ…….

            1 Cor. 15:27
            27For “God has put everything under His feet.” Now when it says that everything has been put under Him, this clearly does not include the One who put everything under Him. 28And when all things have been subjected to Him, then the Son Himself will be made subject to Him who put all things under Him, so that God may be all in all.

          5. Who needs the two witnesses if billions of Holy Spirit=Filled Christians are still around doing the great commission during the Great Tribulation?

          6. The rapture and Resurrection of the saints happens at the sixth Vials Judgement. Checkout Rev.. 16:15..

            Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

            and Rev.21:9…
            9 And there came unto me ONE OF THE SEVEN ANGELS which had the SEVEN VIALS full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the BRIDE, the Lamb’s wife.

          7. No disrespect Eaglet but you don’t know what you are talking about. You still don’t even know the basics much more the profound depths of scripture. Instead of trying to teach try and learn from others that knows the scriptures better like Wayne and Connie

          8. Actually I’m not trying to teach, I’m just sharing my thoughts and hoping wayne and connie will refute ot knowing tjey are more knowledgable in scriptures they can easily test the scriptures that i used to backup my thoughts with other scriptures

          9. Eaglet. I see that you were wanting Wayne or I to take you on and refute what you say. I can’t speak for Wayne, but I tried showing you how off you are in your interpretation some time back, but you are adamant that you are right and we are wrong. When someone has no interest in listening, I don’t bother anymore. There’s no point.

          10. Tell me plainly why were the pasages in Rev. 16:15 “Behold I come as a thief…” and in Rev 21:9 ” One of the Seven Angel who had the Seven Plagues of the Vials Judgement…” has no significance and relevance at all to the rapture event and even to the entire prophetic end time plan of God? if there is, then what is it for?
            Why the need for Proclamation by Jesus Christ”Behold I come as a thief” right in the time of armies being gathered for the Armageddon battle? Why One of the Seven Angels of the Vial Judgement after a thaousand years had already passed? Why can’t it be simply said “an Angel” if it is insignificant?

            I was once a pretribber. My belief on PTR was formed based on the views of those famous PTR Bible scholars and Authors of PTR, and even on the Left Behind movie. But when I started studying on my own and but still guided by views
            of the famous Postrib Teachers, I finally become Post Trib. But my search did not stop there. When I watched from youtube “Seven words that destroyed the PTR”, there’s a nudge in my heart that compelled me that there are still more that needs to be searched an studied. When I came aceoss Rev 21:9, only then that Rev. 16:15 gets its validation that the rapture will happen at the Sixth Vials judgement.

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