A while back, I sat in my church’s balcony listening to a sermon related to Bible prophecy. The speaker (who was not the pastor) discussed 2 Thessalonians 2 in his message. This chapter is important because it refers to Christ’s coming and the Antichrist. The speaker briefly suggested as he discussed the chapter:
- Christians might only see the early stages of the Antichrist’s career.
- Christians will not see the Antichrist serving in the role as the Antichrist.
I found the speaker’s assertion regarding Christians and the Antichrist highly debatable to say the least, but I kept my silence. Instead of debating the speaker, I will share my thoughts on the issue of whether Christians will see the Antichrist in this article.
2 Thessalonians 2
The Apostle Paul wrote about the coming of Christ in 2 Thessalonians 2. Paul indicated that Christ would not come until:
- The “falling away” (apostasy) comes first.
- The “man of sin” (the Antichrist) is revealed (discloses his true identity).
“(1) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, (2) That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. (3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; (4) Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.” (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4)
The speaker at my church argued that the apostasy is underway today with declining moral values and declining regard for the Bible’s teachings.
- I will not argue this point because there seems to be a decline in moral values and fewer churches and individuals are teaching from the Bible as time goes on.
Recall that the Apostle Paul indicated that the Antichrist’s true nature would be revealed before Christ comes. He gave us an indication of what to look for when this happens. Verse 4 suggests the Antichrist wants people to view him as God when he reveals his true identity:
“Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.” (2 Thessalonians 2:4)
This detail is significant because we can use it to pinpoint when Antichrist will reveal his true identity as the man of sin.
When Antichrist Will Reveal His True Identity
The Rise of the Antichrist
Daniel 7 provides an overview of four beasts emerging from the sea. Each beast represents a different kingdom in history. The fourth beast is the most notable kingdom because it is a kingdom that has not yet come.Daniel 7:7-8 introduces the fourth beast:
“(7) After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns. (8) I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.” (Daniel 7:7-8)
Daniel 7:23-25 gives us more detail about the fourth beast:
“(23) Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. (24) And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. (25) And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.” (Daniel 7:23-25)
The fourth beast represents the kingdom of the Antichrist. The “little horn” represents the Antichrist in verse 8:
“I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.” (Daniel 7:8)
The portrayal of the Antichrist as a “little horn” may mean that he will not be as powerful as the other ten kings (the ten horns) when he begins his career. This will change as the Antichrist gains power and overthrows leaders. However, the Antichrist’s true nature will remain hidden as he begins his career and begins to amass power.
The Reign of the Antichrist Begins
Daniel 7:25 describes a phase in Antichrist’s career when he will utter blasphemies against God as described in 2 Thessalonians 2 and wage war with the saints for “a time and times and the dividing of time” or 3.5 years:
“And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time” (Daniel 7:25)
Revelation 13 covers this phase of Antichrist’s career. The chapter also describes a beast from the sea.
- The beast from the sea of Revelation 13 represents the empire of the Antichrist described in Daniel 7 at a mature stage of its development as the dragon, Satan, gives his power to the beast (Revelation 13:3).
- The actions of the beast from the sea (the empire of the Antichrist) and the actions of the Antichrist are synonymous since the Antichrist is the ruler of his empire.
Here is Revelation 13:1-10 with a few key verses highlighted:
“(1) And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. (2) And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. (3) And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. (4) And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? (5) And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. (6) And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. (7) And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. (8) And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. (9) If any man have an ear, let him hear. (10) He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.” (Revelation 13:1-10)
Revelation 13:4-7 states that the beast from the sea will speak blasphemies against God and will be an object of the world’s worship. This passage parallels other passages about the Antichrist like 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4. The table below shows the similarities between these passages:
The Antichrist Will Speak Blasphemies Against God and Persecute
- The Antichrist
- Blasphemy God
- 42 Month War with the Saints
Revelation 13:4-7: (4) And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? (5) And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies;and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. (6) And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. (7) And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Daniel 7:24-25: “(24) And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. (25) And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time”.
2 Thessalonians 2:3-4: (3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; (4) Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
The reason for the overview of the fourth beast of Daniel 7 and the beast from the sea of Revelation 13 is that these chapters taken together suggest:
- The Antichrist will begin to demand worship of the world and speak blasphemies against God at the start of a 42 month war with the saints (especially when you compare Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:4-7).
The Abomination of Desolation
This 42 month war with the saints relates to the midpoint of the tribulation (or the 70th week of Daniel) when Antichrist will cease temple sacrifice and set up an abomination of desolation:
“And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.” (Daniel 9:27)
The midpoint of the tribulation is a logical point in time for the Antichrist to reveal his true identity to the world.
- At that time, he will halt religious practices and set up something that is affront to God in the temple of God. This reminds us of how 2 Thessalonians 2:4 states that Antichrist will sit in the temple of God showing himself to be God when he reveals his true identity to the world.
- The great tribulation will begin as soon as the abomination of desolation is set up. This is a time of extreme persecution that relates to the war with the saints:
“(15) When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) (16) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: (17) Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: (18) Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. (19) And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! (20) But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: (21) For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. (22) And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.” (Matthew 24:15-22)
The war with the saints will begin as the Antichrist starts to demand worship from the world and starts to speak blasphemies against God. Meanwhile, the great tribulation will begin as the Antichrist sets up something affront to God.
- It’s no coincidence that both events begin when the Antichrist starts to do things that are an affront to God.
Conclusion
Therefore, Antichrist will not reveal his true nature to the world until the midpoint of the tribulation. This implies that Christ may not come until at least after the midpoint of the tribulation. Remember, 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 suggests that Christ’s coming will not occur until first the falling away and the unveiling of the man of sin:
“(3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; (4) Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.” (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4)
This means that Christians are not only going to see the Antichrist, but will likely see a lot of the Antichrist, including his entire rise to power. I expect many who believe in the Pre-Trib Rapture to disagree with this article. Anyone who disagrees is welcome to express their views in the comments below.
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There is only one man who is the opposite of Jesus [Matt;27;37] as the most popular modern king. WAS 1996 11th king[12thPrime Minister -one Queen-Golda] 8th head -3 repeat twice 7th head fatally wounded; WAS NOT 1999 subdues 3 kings-1st prepared to give the Woman[Jerusalem] as combined capitol; Barak–removed ;2nd goes to the coastland [Gaza war] directs conflict-Sharon- ‘falls in days[3]’ with stroke-removed; 3rd the ‘collector of taxes’ -Olmert formerly treasurer-removed .Name in ‘old Hebrew Gematria’ adds to 666- Binyamin Netanyahu. ‘They [Israel] will be given into his hand[the man of sin] ‘a Time [ endtime measured-great tribulation- a Biblical hour of the Last Two saints Rev11-named in Isaiah 44;1,8] 3.5yrs ,TimesX 3.5yrs & half Time+ 1.75yrs thus 3.5 X3.5 + 1.75yrs = 14yrs . Bibi [meaning ‘the little son-horn’] WAS 1996 WAS NOT 1999 subdues 3 kings WAS AGAIN 2009 until unable to form Govt 1 year as caretaker king for 12mnths then Coalition with Ganz then king again until removal 13th July 2021 =TOTAL 14 YEARS to the day-Prophecy fulfilled! he fulfills ALL Prophecy you do not understand .Write me as the ‘Spirit’ has given much
– sadly my family [& the Lord’s ] are the BEAST that murdered God’s only given Messiah Son & are unredeemed & unrepentant to this point having ‘Dominion ‘ over the World’s Money & Trade. I am not anti-Semetic just simply follow my Messiah as we ALL should ….Baruch Hashem……Maranatha Shalom……old Messianic Jew
To me this is very easy. I used to think we were going to be in the tribulation but then I thought about children. Why would God make children choose between him and the mark? Also for evil to take over the earth its moral spine must be removed. Of course there will be Christians who die but I believe we will be raptured as a testimony for him and not just to save us from pain.
Why would God make children choose between Him and Caesar? or Him and another dictator? We are not better than the first century Church. I am not better than the Christ’s own apostles. They were martyred. I don’t deserve better treatment than them. The concept of Pre-Trib implies that the Church now deserves better treatment than the first century Church, including Christ’s own apostles.
It doesn’t take much for evil to take over the earth with the people already here. 2 Thessalonians warns of a falling away. You don’t have to remove the Church to have evil rise and dominate.
Thanks for your thoughtful article. I have wrestled with this much.
To me the confusion lies in the use of the word saints (holy ones) in the Daniel and Revelation passages and who it applies to.
There are obviously saints in the tribulation period. That is indisputable.
But those references are applying to one or two groups, other than the Bride of Christ, those many call tribulation saints (those from the nations who turn to God in the tribulation) or to Israel, God’s chosen people.
Daniel’s 70 week prophecy is 100% related to Israel. During the seventh week, which many call the tribulation, (So far I think the tribulation is only the last 3.5 years), I believe the Bride of Christ will be gone. If we understand that there is a parenthesis between the 69th and 70th week of Daniel’s 70 weeks prophecy everything falls into place. Jesus calls this parenthesis, the times of the Gentiles.
Also we have to differentiate between promises made to Israel and promises made to the church; they are different promises and they include different groups of people, although Jews who become Christians during the church age are part of the bride, vs the Jewish remnant that will recognize Jesus as their Messiah at the end of the tribulation after the intense persecution from the antichrist.
The Word tells us that the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. God gave specific promises to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and David and these promises are yet unfulfilled. I do not believe these promises transfer over to the church and that God no longer is keeping them to Israel, they are too specific and God is not a man that He should lie.
When you understand scripturally, that God will not bring wrath on his bride as He promises over and over again in the New Testament but the wrath is on the unbelieving world and to bring the remnant of Israel back to Him for the millennial reign of Christ. And if one keeps Promises to Israel separate from the promises to the bride or the church you have less problems understanding these passages and a pre-antichrist, pre-tribulation, pre-wrath gathering of the bride becomes obvious and the many passages telling us to watch for the Lord’s coming for His bride as something that is imminent are no longer contradictory.
The 70th week of Daniel does pertain to Israel, but the Church isn’t removed from the earth during the 70th week of Daniel.
https://www.prophecyproof.org/why-matthew-24-applies-church/
https://www.prophecyproof.org/rapture-end-time-wrath-of-god/
https://www.prophecyproof.org/luke-1737-overlooked-prophecy/
If I may be cheeky, do you have any repellants in mind to ward off the the locusts with stings that torment for five months? (Rev 9:3-5) The only ones exempt from being stung are the 144,000 Jews “sealed…in their foreheads.” (Rev 7:3)
Psalm 91 seems to suggest that you might be okay with those locusts if you’re alive at that time.
Thanks, for this. Just posted something on my FB page, dealing with this same subject. I came online, to see if I have same witnesses. 2 Thess. 2 and Matthew 24 is very clear. I run with you.
Believers will not see the revealing of the antichrist. They only will see what we currently Are seeing right now that is the beast system rising. ( Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth ) speaking to the body of believers the church and if you notice the church is not mentioned after Rev 3 because they have been removed.
I believe The KJV phrase of falling away in 2 Thess. 2:3 is referring to the Departure or rapture of the church and would fall in line with the teachings of all scripture because Gods word does not contradict itself .
The KJV English phrase “falling away”, in 2 Thess. 2:3, is the one Greek word “apostasia”, and its basic meaning is to “depart from” or “go away”.
The Greek word “Apostasia” is a compound of two Greek words: “Apo” = “to move away”, “stasis” means “standing or state”, or “to stand”.
Literally, from its basic definition, “apostasia” means “to go away from”, or “depart”, or “change state or standing from one state to another”.
Here is something for all your studying that you have done since a teenager. The church will not be needed here for the time known as the time of Jacobs trouble this time also known as the 7 year tribulation is God Pacifically dealing with the nation of Israel and the wrath of God to come is dealing Pacifically to the unbelieving un repented sinful world that has rejected christ, There would be No reason nor purpose for the church to be present. we are getting ready at any moment to transition from 1 dispensation into another that is from the church age to the time of Jacobs trouble the 7 year tribulation will start only after 1. The church has been removed and 2. only will start at the signing of a 7year covenant with Israel for this my friend the church will not be needed whatsoever so I believe your teaching is in error and you are misleading people.
2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
for that day
The working of the mystery of lawlessness under divine restraint which had already begun in the apostle’s time 2 Thessalonians 2:7
The removal of that which restrains the mystery of lawlessness 2 Thessalonians 2:6 2 Thessalonians 2:7 . The restrainer is a person–“he,” and since a “mystery” always implies a supernatural element / “Matthew 13:11”) this Person can be none other than the Holy Spirit in the church, to be “taken out of the way” ; 2 Thessalonians 2:7 ; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 .
The manifestation of the lawless one 2 Thessalonians 2:8-10 ; Daniel 7:8 ; 9:27 ; Matthew 24:15 ; Revelation 13:2-10
Then what do you make of Rev 7:9-15
After this I looked and saw a multitude too large to count, from every nation and tribe and people and tongue, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10And they cried out in a loud voice: “Salvation to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”Then one of the elders addressed me: “These in white robes,” he asked, “who are they, and where have they come from?“Sir,” I answered, “you know.” So he replied, “These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation;”
This plainly identifies a group of Christians who lived during the Tribulation. The same Greek word is also used in the Olivet Discourse.
What does Christian mean? In Christ! We as Christians (body of Christ) are IN CHRIST irrevocable, sealed by the spirit onto the day of redemption! (rapture)
Ephesian 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Israel (12 apostles/little flock/believing Israel) is also IN CHRIST, but not via the same route, they have a covenant to adhere to and have to produce FRUIT! They also don’t have a rapture, their eternal destiny is a heavenly kingdom on earth, while our destination is heaven! Body of Christ is nowhere to be found in the book od revelation!
God bless You!
My rebuttal to the idea that the Church is not found in the Book of Revelation: https://www.prophecyproof.org/revelation-4-1-depict-rapture/
If I’m not mistaken, Pre-Trib teaches that there are people who come to faith in Jesus Christ during the tribulation. How do people come to faith in Jesus Christ during the tribulation without the Holy Spirit? The restrainer can’t be the Holy Spirit.
Many verses indicate that believers will be on Earth during the tribulation. Like the overlooked Luke 17:37:
https://www.prophecyproof.org/luke-1737-overlooked-prophecy/
In general I have considered the idea of a pre-tribulation rapture to be a false teaching by lukewarms who want to call themselves servants of Jesus Christ but are afraid of the cross they must bear to do so in truth.
Revelation 13 clearly says the anti-christ will make war with the saints, which would be impossible if they are raptured before it all goes to shit. There will be people faithful to Jesus Christ still in the earth during the 42 month “great tribulation” period, but then there is Matthew 24:29-31 where Jesus Himself says He will not return until after the tribulation. He goes on to say that the saints will then be taken, while the ones who are not of faith get left behind.
2 Tim 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
You failing this command!
God bless You!
All references of apostasia in the Septuagint refer to backsliding or rebelling against God. The LXX is the main translation used in OT references in the NT thus Scripture interprets Scripture and apostasia is rebellion.
It is not the Holy Spirit what is removed, it is THE BODY OF CHRIST! (rapture)! God bless You!
Wayne, the Antichrist is just as the early Protestant churches taught, the papacy. The Jesuits were formed to combat this truth. They have been extremely successful. They are the reason you cut the last week off the 70 week prophecy. Take the Historical position for a while. The rapture is at the last trump. There can only be one last trump and only one rapture, the one at the Second Coming. It is impossible to imagine any future Antichrist who could fulfill the 21 points of identification from the Bible as the papacy does. Go to Mark Woodman’s lecture “Who is the Antichrist”. You will see what I mean. It is the papacy and can be no other!
FINALLY someone who says exactly what God has shown me regarding the rapture!!! I love this site!!
I’m glad you like this website Alexandria. Thanks for reading!
I’m glad to have found your site. I agree with your teaching wholeheartedly. Be very blessed as you teach God’s children.
As a new Christian I was raised with the teaching of the protein rapture and certainly wanted to believe it but it finally dawned on me one day to follow along with scripture as one pastor after another taught this. I was very disturbed to see something completely different as I read the text before and after the particular scriptures being used in the sermon and as I questioned them I was greeted with alarm and even accusations so fir a very long time I kept my opinions to myself and sad to say my children are now questioning why in the world I would switch sides…but as I’ve studied more and tried to do research, there have been a few suggestions that the antichrist might be Jewish, from the tribe of Dan and might be presented as the ” coming messiah ” that Israel was expecting all along, which might also cause alot of confusion with many Christians who were expecting a rapture, didnt see one and now we have this great apostasy. I think the possibility that the antichrist being Jewish is a big possibility, maybe I’m just trying to explain away the apostasy though. It’s hard for me to understand but so is looking forward to a time of tribulation that the world has never seen up to this point with all the terrible things that Christians have endured to this point. Do you give any merit to this thought that the antichrist could be telling the world he’s actually Jesus?
I don’t rule out the possibility for the Antichrist to claim that he is the messianic figure expected by ALL the world’s major religions. Antichrist claiming to be the messiah of all the world’s major religions would make it easier for him to attract the support of the world instead of claiming to be the messiah of a single religion.
I also don’t rule out the possibility that the False Prophet could be a counterfeit Jesus. By that, I mean he could physically look just like what the paintings of Jesus show, claim to be Jesus of Nazareth, and tell the world that Antichrist is actually the one who deserves to be worshipped.
You assume that it is an “individual”, and you assume that Jesus looks like the pictures that are in the Bible. The original Hebrew texts of the Old and New Testaments had no pictures. The pictures were added by “the church” when the Bible was compiled or later. The problem with most Christians today is that they do NOT know the difference between God’s real word and man’s bastardization of that word. Additionally, today’s Christians do not interpret scripture in the meanings of the words used when it was written, they instead, very stupidly, interpret it with modern meanings! The Holy Bible has been mistranslated and misinterpreted for centuries which has led Christians and even non-believers to accept that deceit, and by accepting that deceit their name will not be in the “Lamb’s book of life”! There is no excuse for believing the lies because God gave us scripture (the original writings), and we ALL have the ability to compare the translations with the original Hebrew text. There are many good people who have done the work for us and have provided it in writing and on the internet and show it by providing the scripture and the explanation, which we ourselves can double check to ensure accuracy. But instead, most Christians and all non-believers go along with the lies because of who is spreading those lies – 1) the catholic church/papacy, 2) the jews, 3) governments, 4) “scientists and scholars”, 5) the media, 6) the deceivers who include many clergy and evangelists, 7) and the entertainment industry.
Something that most people, especially Christians, do not know, is that the KJV of the Bible is the most accurate translation of the Bible, and yet it has around 27,000 translation errors. But the reason that the KJV is important is because it is a word-for-word direct translation which allows us to be able to look up each word. Example: the 6th commandment of “Thou shalt not kill” in the KJV, is actually “Thou shalt not murder” in the Hebrew text.
Wayne, your discussion is very generic and was obviously not very well researched.
I don’t know how you conclude that I think that Jesus looks like paintings. Actually, no I don’t. I think He looks nothing like that. I’m suggesting the False Prophet could possibly look like the paintings as a way to deceive people. There may be a reason why images of Jesus look a certain way. It’s may be to set people up for a future deception.
I’m aware of the KJV. It’s the translation I use on this website and the one I prefer to study with. The church I go to uses the KJV as its text.
You obviously don’t know that much about me.
Wayne, I appreciate your insight and study on these views, and I read nearly every post so far! I love Jesus and I am so excited about his return. Thank you for the site.
Thanks for reading Sunny!
If we have all the wisdom in the world, but have not Charity then we are as a sounding brass.
People don’t need to know Hebrew to be saved. They need to be in Christ. And that is to love your God with all your heart and to love thy brethren. If he has given you light to share then give it with Love.
He has hidden truth from the wise in their own eyes, the prudent, the proud, the one who desires to use Gods word for his own gain and revealed it unto babes. If any man think he is something. Let him know he is nothing.
You sound like a Pharisee. No offense. As a spiritual man doesn’t get offended. But you strain the gnat while swallowing the camel. Is Christ your blood brother? Are you in covenant? Are you dead to self? If not He ain’t gonna show you the truth. Bc he owns the truth. I know uneducated, poor people who somehow understand the word. They don’t know Hebrew. They know the Lord.
In revelation 13:18 states that those with wisdom and understanding will be able to divine the true identity of the AC. I believe that what God is telling us that in the end days a select few will have that wisdom. I believe I have that wisdom but will not state his name here. And no it is not Trump, Macron, Price Charles or any of the other frequently mentioned names. He is very active behind the scenes and his true identity will take everyone by surprise.
If he is the pope, I agree with you. See Mark Woodman’s lecture “Who is the Antichrist”.
I believe that the pope will be the false prophet.
The Pope is the false prophet.
In the context of the rapture First Thessalonians 5:3 reads: “For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden (unexpected) destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.”
Once the tribulation is up and going any destruction would not be sudden or unexpected. It would be the norm. People would not be saying “peace and safety.” A mid, late or post tribulation rapture then could not be the prelude to the “sudden destruction.” The “destruction” would need to be around the start of the tribulation or earlier.
Who then are the “them” the sudden destruction comes upon and the “they” that shall not escape?
In a Post-Trib scenario, the Rapture and onset of the Day of the Lord would occur shortly after the raising of the Two Witnesses. Revelation 11 indicates that the wicked will have a false sense of security as they celebrate the deaths of the Two Witnesses. The wicked will be partying and exchanging gifts. But, the celebration will be put to a halt when their destruction comes. They are those with the Mark of the Beast.
The 2 witnesses are raised in chapter 11. The mark of the beast appears in chapter 13. Are you saying that these events are not given in chronological order?
Revelation’s events are not always presented in chronological order like end time prophecy is not always given in chronological order in many prophecy books like Isaiah and Daniel. Revelation’s chronology tends to progress, then stops to rehash things or give more detail about things hinted about, and then continue the progression. I believe the raising of the Two Witnesses in Revelation 11 occurs after the events described in Revelation 13.
You are correct that Revelation is not presented in chronological order (by chapter order). Revelation 13 and Revelation 11 happen at the same time. The two witnesses in Revelation 11 (whether they are two individuals or two groups – I don’t know, but I lean toward them being the body of believers; the saints) are among those who make war against the anti-christ for the entire 42 month period of “great tribulation”. War implies a struggle and conflict, not a one-sided massacre, which suggests to me that the anti-christ will be dealing with heavy resistance during that 42 month period. It is not until satan himself appears that the two witnesses are actually killed.
The Father uses numbers to represent things:
13 means rebellion and lawlessness, especially in the form of man-made governments
11 means judgment of the lawbreakers, the ones who remain in sin and at enmity with the Father.
3,7,10,12 are numbers that refer to varying degrees of completion. Notice which chapters are align with these numbers.
At the opening of the 4th seal a quarter of the population are killed. At the sounding of the 6th trumpet one third are killed. That is a large amount of destruction before the two witnesses are raised and that is from only 2 of the disasters that the 2 witnesses are not linked to. The continuation of the judgements would not have come as a surprise after the 2 witnesses ascended to heaven.
The wicked at that time will indeed have lived through some horrible events. But that false sense of security will still exist because the wicked are likely to associate the horrible events they experienced to the Two Witnesses:
Revelation 11:10 states: “And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.”
Without the Two Witnesses, the people of earth will be partying and giving gifts. That’s quite a reaction! Not something I think a lot of people would be doing if they were expecting more destruction.
True while they are still dead. But after the two witnesses are resurrected and ascend to heaven those dwelling on earth would probably be having second thoughts about whether or not the judgements had ceased. Killing them had not worked.
Yes, they’ll be horrified by their raising. But in my timeline of end time events, the wicked won’t have much time to think because their destruction is about to commence.
There is one thing I believe you may be getting wrong. In 2 Thessalonians 2, you may be mistaken on what it is talking about. I made this same mistake and learned later I was wrong. Most versions of the Bible will say “as that the day of the Lord is at hand” and not “day of Christ”. The versions that use “Christ” are KJV and Youngs, and thats what got me because those two versions are usually so trust worthy. However, in this one case, they are getting it wrong I believe.
The reason I believe this is because when they were translated, they were translated from all of the earliest manuscripts we had…. at the time. Today we have many more manuscripts and some from earlier than we had then. The earlier manuscripts use “day of the Lord”.
The Day of Christ is always referring to the Rapture. The Day of the Lord is not. It refers to the second coming or rather the tribulation leading up to the second coming. When you type in “day of the Lord” in Biblegateway.com it lists all the verses where that phrase is listed. (Use the quote marks in the search.) You will find that none of them speak of the rapture and all of them are of time ranges of the second coming and or the tribulation.
The church of Thessalonians was likely afraid that if the Day of the Lord was at hand, then they must have missed the Day of Christ. So Paul was telling them that the Great Tribulation and Second coming would not happen until after the Beast was revealed for who he is. Its not saying the rapture would not happen.
I am not a pre-trib or mid-trib believer personally. I believe it could be either of those. I am only certain the Post-Trib is wrong. I was a mid-trib believer until I learned the truth of that verse and that KJV and Youngs were the only versions who held onto the Day of Christ. After that, I had to admit that the Pre-Trib Rapture was still possible and I preach it that way.
The Day of the Lord is directly connected to the Rapture because it’s at the onset of the Day of the Lord that the wrath of God that believers are not appointed to begins. If we remove 2 Thessalonians 2 from the equation, I believe there’s still strong evidence that the Rapture and the Day of the Lord are linked together by considering passages like Luke 17:26-37 and Matthew 13:30-42. Each of these passages indicate that the destruction of the wicked occurs around the same time the righteous are gathered in an end time harvest of the earth.
https://www.prophecyproof.org/luke-1737-overlooked-prophecy/
I believe the Day of Christ and the Day of the Lord represent the same event but from different perspectives. The Day of Christ is associated with the righteous perspective as the righteous will become blameless and will be rewarded at that time (Phil 1:6, 10, Phil 2:14-17, 1Cor 1:7-8, 1Cor 5:5, 2Cor 1:14) while the Day of the Lord is more associated with the punishment of the wicked.
I would hope that true Christians would be speaking of the sin of man and the redemption through Our Lord Jesus Christ. The Lord will reveal these things to his children as necessary
He will not leave us in the dark
I would hope that true Christians would be speaking of the sin of man and the redemption through the Our Lord Jesus Christ. The Lord will reveal these things to his children as necessary
He will not leave us in the dark
If the church goes into the great tribulation would that not mean the seven years of the tribulation are not the same seven years of Daniel’s seventieth week? If the gap between the 69th and 70th weeks began with the commencement of the church logically it would finish with the departure of the church. After the departure of the church Israel’s 70 week “commission” of Daniel 9:24 would then re-commence and operate for the next seven years.
The great tribulation is not the same as the 70th week of Daniel. The great tribulation is a part of the 70th week of Daniel where great persecution occurs and will begin after the Antichrist sets up the abomination of desolation (midway through the 70th week). The “tribulation” and the 70th week of Daniel are synonymous terms. The church may have started in that gap between the 69th and 70th week but I don’t see anything that indicates that the church has to be removed before the start of the 70th week.
Then the church’s commission and Israel’s commission would have a relatively short overlap, somewhere less than 7 years.
I expect Christians and the people of Israel to both face prolonged persecution during Daniel’s 70th week, especially during the great tribulation.
So you are saying the church age overlaps with the 70th week of Daniel?
Yes. Christians will be around during the 70th week of Daniel.
Does this mean the Christians will suffer with the rest of the world beginning from the sixth seal to say, the seventh trumpet? That’s a lot of deaths, and if the Christians don’t die as part of the 1/4 and the 1/3, then the survivors would be predominantly Christian. Then the Rapture happens, the remaining population must be slim. I have no aggressive arguments I’m just seriously contemplating 🙂 I personally subscribed to the pre-trib doctrine very recently and that’s just because I found it inconsistent with God’s promises that we suffer His wrath (earthquakes and the scorpion thingos that will make people wish death, to witness them would be grave enough). So yeah just rambling and wanted to know your opinion.
Remember that God can protect people as chaos occurs around them. He protected the Israelites as the plagues of Egypt were harming the Egyptians. Consider Psalm 91. It’s a prophetic Psalm that talks about how the Lord will protect people as thousands die around them.
The New Testament does say that Christians are indeed exempt from God’s wrath. However, different Greek words for wrath exist in the New Testament and the distinction is key. The type of wrath the New Testament indicates Christians are exempt from doesn’t start until late in the end times. I go into detail about this in my book Prophecy Proof Insights of the End Times.
That’s an interesting point. Which led me to think, this timing of the rapture, it seems to depend a lot on our interpretation of certain keyterms in prophecy that, I guess, the proponents of the different views just can’t agree on.
I personally think pre-trib is just a very convenient answer, rather than a definitive one.
Am I right though in assuming this? Or is there Scripture that says the rapture definitely won’t happen before the tribulation or Scripture that hints on its timing correlatable to timetable-heavy passages such as in Daniel or Revelation? Because as far as I know, people agree that the most glaring reference to the rapture is the Thessalonian epistles and that doesn’t help much in putting a time, or am I missing something?
Thank you for the response btw 🙂
And I agree God does isolate his people from surrounding destruction and that happened many times. Is there a direct reason to believe though that the same will definitely happen in the tribulation, or are we just stating that God will protect us IF and only if, we make it to the tribulation times? Was my question clear?
Because if the former is true, that Scripture states that God’s people will be present in tribulation times but God will protect them, then I don’t get why there are still contentions. Pre-trib is out of the question. If the latter though, then yeah, it’s a promise, but it doesn’t say much about prophecy. Right?
I believe the seven churches of Revelation 2 and 3 reflect the spiritual condition of seven types of churches that have existed throughout history and will exist during the end times.
https://www.prophecyproof.org/seven-churches-revelation-2-3/
The message to the Church of Philadelphia contains a promise of protection. I believe the Greek in Revelation 3:10 indicates that followers who are associated with the Church of Philadelphia will be protected from the dangers that will occur around them (i.e. protection while within a sphere of danger). These people will have a level of protection during the time of testing as they have already proven themselves.
Oh and incidentally, the message to the Church of Philadelphia was used by a pretrib speaker that I know to defend the view. According to the speaker, the promise of being kept from the hour of trial means the Christians won’t be around when the tribulation comes. Is there reason to believe that being kept from the hour of trial is a sphere of protection rather than an escape (via Rapture)?
The Greek word for “keep” in Revelation 3:10 conveys the sense of guarding by keeping an eye upon. It does not convey removal from the danger.
Yes, some disagreement comes from how one defines certain key terms. Some see Matthew 24 as only applying to Israel. Others say that Matthew 24 definitely applies to Christians. I fall in the latter camp because the “elect”, which Christ talks about in Matthew 24, are also mentioned elsewhere in the New Testament with a definite connection to Christians (like in Romans 8:28-32).
Adopting a Rapture position based on what is convenient or comfortable isn’t the best idea. The truth is what everyone should pursue no matter how much it may delight us or hurt us. I know people who grew up as followers of Pre-Trib because that is what they were taught growing up. After they did their own independent study of Scripture, they realized that what they were taught growing up was wrong.
Bible prophecy is the ultimate puzzle. Thousands of Scripture passages need to be put together to get a realistic view of the end times. One passage I think everyone should consider is Luke 17:34-37 with a special focus on verse 37. It’s a really overlooked Rapture passage. I know of one person whose Rapture viewpoint was completely transformed from studying that passage. My own position evolved from studying that passage.
True, I haven’t studied that passage in detail in relation to the end-times and I admit it perplexes me as to why, because it’s there in Matthew and Luke and I’ve overlooked it countless times.
As to what it says, I’m no scholar so I have to do a lot more reading. Basing from the little i’ve read, there are discussions on whether this refers to the Rapture or the Second Coming, or whether the taken refers to the believers or the nonbelievers, and many point out to cross-references in the Book of Job. So many voices saying things for both sides.
Would you recommend a particular start-off point in my study of this passage? And any other passages that might help? (As you might have noticed, I’m really in the middle of views right now)
I reckon as well, that the non-explicit-mention of God protecting Christians in the end times would lead pre-tribs I know to defend their stance by saying, if God meant for the Christians to stay for him to protect, wouldn’t that be a significant enough detail to be part of prophecy? So perhaps the non-mention would point the other way, that they’d be gone before tribulation? I’m just imagining what they would say because that’s whay I would say if I were to defend the stance.
Matthew 13:24-43 and 13:47-50 are good starting places. Then compare Luke 17:34-37 with Matthew 24:28, 36-41. Matthew 24:28 is mentioned because it relates to Luke 17:37. You may want to also consider Revelation 19:17-18 and Ezekiel 39:17-21 while studying Matthew 24:28 and Luke 17:37.
The Bible mentions Antichrist and the dragon making war against those who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. To me, that’s a strong indication that Christians will face persecution during the end times. Also, by identifying the “elect” as Christians in Matthew 24, I get a really strong sense from the Bible that Christians will face persecution. 2 Thessalonians 2 even says our gathering to Christ won’t happen until at least after the Antichrist reveals his true identity, which I demonstrated in this article is at the midway point of the 70th week of Daniel (tribulation).
Thank you, Mr. Croley. I appreciate your taking the time to respond. Will look at these passages and see where it gets me, and hopefully I can come back to you should I encounter difficulty or revelation.
I agree, Luke 17 is a fascinating passage. I’d never thought of it within the chronological framework of the Parable of the Weeds until I read something recently (maybe it was your book – can’t remember now). I certainly need to study it in greater detail myself.
Luke 17 is indeed referenced in several parts of my book.
I apologize for hijacking the conversation between you and Michael, but I just wanted to say that I spent several hours studying all of the scriptures mentioned in your book, as well as the ones mentioned above, in detail yesterday – and I’m amazed. Haven’t had an experience like that in quite some time.
I’m still not totally clear on where the rapture falls (maybe between the time that the angels gather the wicked and the battle actually begins?), so I definitely have more studying to do, but for the first time, I feel that things are truly starting to make sense in my mind when it comes to an actual timeline.
Very cool.
I’m glad things are starting to make sense to you Watchman. Keep studying!
I’ll just say one other thing, sorry:
One of the most amazing things is that, even being post-trib, and even understanding the chronology of the parable of the weeds, the dragnet, etc., I was STILL reading Luke 17:37 largely from the perspective of the righteous being taken and the wicked left behind. That doesn’t even make sense, I know, but I seriously think it demonstrates just how deeply the whole “left behind” mantra was etched into my psyche.
And I never even read the “Left Behind” series – it had to have come from somewhere else. That’s pretty scary to consider, as I suspect it’s a reflection of Satan’s powers of deception on a much larger scale too.
It took me a couple of years to read Luke 17:37 from what I think is now the proper perspective.
Isn’t 37 speaking of the powers of darkness. Those that were taken away were swept away by the powers of darkness. Could he be speaking of the foolish virgins. Is the Lord going to pour his spirit out In the last days to His servants and handmaids? He also may be speaking of the second rain. A great falling away…but also a second rain(the purification of his bride). He is going to give the true believers the Holy Spirit overflowing while the ones who did not abide will be swept away by the powers of darkness.
I believe we will be in the tribulation until the last trumpet sound! And our testimony will be that although we be afflicted. We will be filled with the Holy Ghost. Just like he did for the Lord. God puts a hedge around us. Until it will be our time to die for the Lord! But he will carry us through.
I assume the Bible is written to believers. Why would he tell us about all this stuff to come, and also say i tell you this so you won’t be offended when it happens. If we aren’t ever going to see it? Except from above.
To me any doctrine of man is a lie from the father of lies. I know this. It happens after the last trump! We know that. How you can get pre- trib and it happen after the last trump has me perplexed.
I’m no scholar at all. I just read and pray and that’s what I see. We all need to focus more on getting in Christ. Dying to flesh. He is the one who figures it out for us. It ain’t our job to analyze his word. But to do it.
I like your approach. Truth!
I’m glad you recognize the last trump reference and its significance because many seek to minimize it these days.
Reading through these comments I noticed that it appears no one answered the rapture question.
I’ll leave the answering to the author, but I will state that historical pre-millennialism (if I’m not mistaken) did not suppose a rapture. The Historical view assumes the the church will be present on earth during this time. The rapture is a relatively new idea. Maybe 150-200 years old if memory serves me right.
I guess my point is that the Bible never mentions “the rapture” or it’s timing. So the Bible never definitively says that it happens at any time. It has to be inferred through one’s interpretation of some key passages.
As I’m not qualified to be the last word on this topic, I will leave my comment here and welcome and criticism. I’m not trying to make a case for or against the rapture. Simply explaining what I understand the historical pre-millennial position to be.
Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong.
Hi Josh. I agree with the view that the Church will be on Earth during this time. I view the Rapture as more of a meeting with Christ in the air and escorting Him back to Earth at the end of the tribulation. I don’t agree with the popular idea depicted in “Left Behind”.
Regarding the last days scripture does say to pray that you are accounted worthy to escape all these things. The great tribulation is the wrath of the Father which we are not appointed to. The tribulation is the time of Jacob’s trouble, the purifying of Israel when their old stony heart is replaced, the very admonition Apostle Paul had for gentile believers who thought the Father was done with Israel. Apart from the remnant of Israel at Christ’s first coming who saw Christ as the Messiah Redeemer, the remainder were blinded for the gentiles sake and until our time is fulfilled.
We gentiles were to provoke the Jews to jealousy and instead we wrote them off and subsumed their unfulfilled blessings. The tribulation is the Father’s wrath against unregenerate gentiles for all their conduct to include how they treated his heritage Israel and against the Jew who still refuses Christ as Messiah Redeemer. Sadly, 2 of every 3 Jews will be destroyed by the antichrist with the remnant preserved.
Perhaps some of the terms like elect and saint as pertains to end times events refer to Israel rather than the Bride of Christ.
I can see mid tribulation rapture at the latest. Christ comes in the clouds for those accounted worthy to escape, the remnant of Israel sees Christ as he is and go into mourning and are given a new heart whereupon the 144000 virgins of the 12 tribes are consecrated to witness, the wrath of Satan commences and the Father’s wrath unfolds in response. There is a time of preservation of those with the Seal of the Father and persecution thereof.
And for the sake of the elect the wrath of the Lamb consumates the end of man’s history as his own master.
Chapter and verse for where it says that the great tribulation is God’s wrath, please. I only see verses that say it is Satan’s wrath. I see many verses that say that God’s wrath is after the great tribulation.
The seal, bowl and trumpet judgements are the Father’s wrath poured out on the unregenerate. The Father, not Satan, brings those events upon the world. Once unrestrained by the Father and consequently knowing his time is short, Satan’s wrath is his murderous desire to destroy all, especially those who do not worship him and take the mark and specifically those who are heirs by the flesh, Israel.
Roman’s 11 is emphatically clear regarding the future of the house of Israel and of the gentiles and explicitly defines and contrasts Israel, gentiles and the Body of Christ. Paul is amplifying here what the prophets of old proclaimed.
If Satan could kill all descendants of Jacob, he would prove the Father a liar for one day He will turn the house of Jacob away from ungodliness, magnifying His Name in the sight of the nations, executing his wrath upon the heathen and granting the Son his rule over restored Israel and the nations, fulfilling the blessings Israel is yet to receive.
Nowhere are the seal judgments indicated to be the wrath of God by Scripture. Just because people desire that they be, does not make it a fact, nor does Scripture uphold that theory. It is an assumption that was arrived at by trying to fit a theory into Scripture, not the reverse of starting with Scripture to develop a doctrine. In fact, the only ones suffering in the 5th seal are Christians, (no unbeliever suffering) who are not supposed to suffer the wrath of God. So how do you explain that since Christians are not appointed to God’s wrath. NO Christians. To say otherwise is to call God a liar. Does it occur to those who think they will not undergo the great tribulation that those who take the mark are not suffering? Only those who refuse to are suffering through the great trib. How is that God’s wrath? And tribulation and God’s wrath are not the same – by definition.
As for Rev. 6:17, It is not heaven declaring that God’s wrath has come in that verse, it is people declaring that God’s wrath is coming in response to the signs they are seeing, and the fear they are feeling. That is not the same as a pronouncement from the throne of God. Heaven declares its commencement later in Revelation and that is where it begins.
Next, the sixth seal signs, which we are told several times in the O.T. prophets (Isaiah, Joel), as well as in Acts, are the precursor to God’s wrath or the Day of the Lord. In other words, Scripture says outright that they come BEFORE God’s wrath as they are the signs to herald its coming. Acts 2:16, 20 “But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;…The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, BEFORE that great and notable day of the Lord come:” We are specifically told these signs occur BEFORE the Day of the Lord or God’s wrath in Scripture. VERY clearly told. Because of this, God’s wrath could not conceivably come before these signs, so do not come before the seals.
Then in looking at the Olivet Discourse we see that Christ Himself tells us that these SAME signs will come AFTER the great tribulation is cut short. (it is cut short of 3.5 years to allow for the trumpets judgments, as clearly the tribulation is over by Rev. 7:14). Therefore God’s wrath CANNOT come before the great tribulation as the signs that announce its coming come AFTER the great trib according to Christ. So unless He is lying, we know that God’s wrath must come after the seals and after the great tribulation. Therefore there is no need for a pre-trib rapture, as we are not appointed to wrath, but we are told over and over that we are to expect tribulation. The great tribulation is only great in its scope. Worst holocaust in the history of the world. Getting killed by the 8th incarnation of the beast is no different from having been killed by one of his previous incarnations (such as the Roman Caesar who put to death all those Christians by lion or burning them at the stake). Getting killed is getting killed no matter who kills you. About one million have been martyred in the last decade. Do you think they suffered any less under their tyrants than those who will be killed during the tribulation? Choosing death over denying Christ is the same no matter who forces it upon you. The Laodicean American church is not exempt while the rest of the world’s Christians must suffer.
Then in Rev. 11 we are told by HEAVEN’S announcement that God’s wrath has finally come. This occurs when the last and seventh trumpet is sounded, just where Paul told us we would find the rapture – at the last trump. And Rev. 11 and the 7th trumpet is AFTER the trumpet judgments. So God’s wrath comes AFTER the trumpets as well after the seals.
And it is at this time, after the sixth trumpet, that the “mighty angel” announces that the “mystery of God” (which most agree is the Church and its age ) is finished. So the Church and its age are finished just before the last and seventh trumpet is sounded, and the wrath of God is announced at the seventh trumpet as well. That is exactly what we should expect. That the saints are not appointed to wrath, and that they are removed just prior to God’s wrath being poured out. There is an interlude in chapter 12-13 and in chapter 14 we pick things up at the place that was left off in Rev. 11 at the last trumpet and we see just what we should expect, the resurrection/rapture event (just as described by Christ in Matt. 24) and the commencement of God’s wrath, which is announced in Rev. 14 (right after the 2nd Coming and rapture occurs), as well as Rev 15, and 16 as you note in your comment. Notice that these verses do not support a pre-trib rapture, they support a rapture before God’s wrath, just as we expect it should be. We are not appointed to wrath. The vials or bowls (depending on which Bible you read) are declared several times to be the wrath of God.
Now, it is not God’s wrath during the great tribulation, but on the other hand, we are clearly told that Satan comes down with great wrath at the mid-point of the 70th week in Rev. 12, so it is he venting his wrath. And we are told that the Jews are put into a place of safety for the 3.5 years, while those who hold to the testimony of Jesus (us) become the focal point of Satan’s wrath. So this is not a time for the Jews, it is a time for the saints. And we are told in Daniel 12 that there will be a time of trouble (the great trib) and THEN the dead will arise (resurrection). Since the resurrection occurs before the rapture, and it is put after the time of trouble, the rapture occurs after the great tribulation.
Daniel 7 and Rev. 13 both tell us that God turns over the saints, us, to the beast. He hands Christians over for persecution. Why? Read the letters to the churches, that’s why. Apostasy. There is no such thing as “tribulation saints” meaning those “left behind”. There is no “left behind”. There is only the fiery trial that Peter speaks of that applies to all Christians who are alive when the 70th week commences. “Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ’s sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, (at the 2nd coming) ye may be glad also with exceeding joy. For the time is come that JUDGMENT MUST BEGIN AT THE HOUSE OF GOD: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? And if the righteous SCARCELY BE SAVED, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
As for Romans 11, yes, when the fulness of the Gentiles (the time of the Church) comes in, or the Church age is finished, then all Israel will be saved. But where does that fulness come in? It comes in at the end of Daniel’s 70th week. We are told in Luke 21 during the Olivet Discourse, that after the abomination occurs “And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.” This tells us that from the abomination of desolation that Jerusalem shall be trodden down by the Gentiles until the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled, or said another way, until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in. But how long is that? We are told in Rev. 11:2 “But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.” So we can see that the city is trodden down by the Gentiles for forty-two months, commencing at the abomination (according to Luke) until the fulness of the Gentiles (Church age) comes in and then, according to Rev. 1:7 and Zech 12:10, Israel will behold Him whom they pierced and mourn and recognize their Savior and then as Paul says in Rom. 11, All Israel will be saved. (Rev. 1:7) “Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.” and (Zech. 12:10) “And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.” So to summarize, when the church age is finished or the fulness of the Gentiles comes in at the end of Daniel’s 70th week, (42 months after the abomination) Israel will see her Savior come and will recognize and mourn Him and then all Israel will be saved.
As for Jacob’s trouble and people associating it with the 70th week and using that as an excuse to say that those seven years are for them to be troubled, note that in Daniel 9 it says that God promised the Jews seven more years to put an end to their sins, reconcile their iniquity and bring in everlasting righteousness. That is what the promise of seven years was to provide. There was no mention of horrific persecution for them during this time. In fact all the verses regarding this say that they will be saved, protected, etc. If you really look at the verse about Jacob’s trouble, you will see that Jer. 30:7 is speaking of the Day of the Lord. “Alas! for that day (The Day of the Lord) is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob’s trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.[8] For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him: [9] But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.” This then is the time of Jacob’s trouble, for the 3.5 years of protection from Satan is over, but those still alive must endure God’s wrath or the Day of the Lord to enter into the kingdom of God and the millennium. God’s wrath will be a terrible time of trouble for them, but “his yoke” (whose yoke? the beast’s yoke) will be broken from off the people’s neck (which occurs at Christ’s 2nd coming when he destroys the beast’s reign). Thus verification that this is clearly speaking of only the Day of the Lord, which we already know occurs after the great tribulation is cut short. Two thirds of the Jews will not make it according to Zechariah, but 1/3 will be saved out of it to go into the millennium.
Everything above is very clearly laid out in Scripture. It only takes open eyes to see it. The biggest mistake made is thinking that Daniel’s 70th week is the Day of the Lord or God’s wrath. It is not by the clear teachings of Scripture.
Rev 6:17 14:10 15:1,7 16:1,19
Hello,
I stumbled across your writing this morning, and I must say it’s pretty well thought out but;
It is written…
“Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.”
Revelation 1:3
(The Church)
“John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.”
Revelation 1:4-6
“He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.”
Revelation 3:5-6
Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.”
Revelation 3:10-13
“To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.”
Revelation 3:21-22
(The Elders)
“After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald. And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.”
Revelation 4:1-4 KJV
“The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.”
Revelation 4:10-11
“And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.”
Revelation 5:9-10
“And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.”
Revelation 6:9-11
(The Gentiles)
“After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.”
Revelation 7:9-17
(Jacob’s Trouble)
“And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.”
Revelation 12:10-13
“Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.”
Revelation 14:12-13
(The Marriage of The Lamb)
“And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God: For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia. And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great. And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.”
Revelation 19:1-2, 4-9
(Saints)
“And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.”
Revelation 20:4-6
“He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.”
Revelation 21:7-8
“And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done. Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.
And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand. He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.”
Revelation 22:6-7, 10-21
(I love you and hope this helps)
“And unto man he said, Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding.”
Job 28:28
An obstacle to believing in a mid,late or post trib rapture is that at the opening of the 6th seal “every bondman, and every free man hid themselves” and told the rocks to hide them “from the wrath of the Lamb.” “Free” and “bond” covers everyone, including Christians. (1Cor 7:21-22) Why would any Christians on earth feel the need to do so?
Similarly at the 6th trumpet, all those not killed refused to repent. They do not sound like rapture material.
Finally if “as many” as refuse to worship the beast are killed, who will there be left to rapture apart from the Jews hiding in the wilderness.
The Greek word for “every” in Revelation 6 does not mean 100% of everyone. The Greek word can mean “some of all types”. Revelation 6:12-17 is giving the sense that a wide scope of humanity is seeking refuge from the events taking place following the opening of the sixth seal. Luke 21:25-28 describes the same scene where people are terrified of what is taking place, but also describes how believers should react to the same situation:
“And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men’s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.” (Luke 21:25-28)
Revelation 9:20-21 is talking GENERALLY about 2/3 of mankind that were not killed. By the logic you provide, the remnant of Israel (the woman of Revelation 12) hiding in the wilderness would be among those who will refuse to repent because they are unlikely to be killed by the events of the 6th trumpet.
Finally, you appear to be referencing Revelation 13:15 which says: “And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed”. “As many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed” is in context of those who do not worship the image of the beast when they are in its presence. Not everyone is going to encounter an image of the beast, particularly those who are wise enough to seek refuge.
So “some of all types” would therefore would also include Christians? Just guessing but there would still be about 5 years to the end of the tribulation period?
Cannot follow your line about the remnant in the wilderness as the 6th trumpet is before they flee there. So they obviously are not killed at that judgement. We are not given much detail about what they do once they get to the wilderness. Perhaps they repent collectively while there.
To clarify, my timeline of events isn’t a normal one people see these days. I have the 6th seal occurring very late in the 7 year timeline. I have the 6th trumpet occurring long after the remnant flees to the wilderness.
See him? I’d not be surprised if most non-elect ‘Christians’ vote him in to power! If recent history governs.
Nice job Wayne. I have also considered many of the things that you talk about in your article. I agree. The Church will see quite a lot of the Antichrist. As a matter of fact I’m pretty certain that Turkish President Erdogan is the Antichrist. But back to your article. The falling away describes the fall of Satan from heaven. Satan must be cast out of heaven before he can empower the Antichrist on earth. Israel’s tribulation will start after those two things happen. God bless you, Craig C. White
Thanks Craig.
I do not believe the Antichrist will arise from Turkey, so I don’t believe it’s him. I have Satan being cast out of heaven near the midway point of the 70th week of Daniel.
What if your church believes a pre tribulation rapture does that make them false teachers? Should you still attend that church?
I attend a Pre-Trib church so I think it’s still okay as long as they don’t make Bible prophecy the focus of their teachings. At my church, Bible prophecy is rarely taught and the pastor knows my views and respects them.
Agree with you 100% But have a question that has racked me brain and maybe you can help. If we are here to preach the truth and preach against the Antichrist, then why are the 144000 and the 2 witnesses needed? If we are the saints mention in Rev 13 then we should be the voice of God. Thoughts?
Will believers have an opportunity to preach against the Antichrist? (rhetorical question) Opportunities are likely to be very limited as believers will be massacred throughout the great tribulation. The idea that the 144,000 will serve as evangelists is something I don’t see much biblical support for. Revelation 14 indicates that they are the first-fruits; perhaps the first-fruits of the end time harvest of the world at the end of the age. The Two Witnesses are the likeliest group to “preach” to the world to turn away from Antichrist and turn towards God.
Will Christians see the Antichrist? Well, certainly Christians present and living during the tribulation will see the Antichrist. Does anybody disagree with that? Even pre-trib dispensationalists say that much.
Great article and well done connecting the scriptures together. I think the verses you mentioned connected with Matthew 24:30-31 show there is no secret pre-trib rapture. Well done, look forward to checking out your new book.
Thanks! The book should be out very soon…
The Jew is the audience of Matthew.
Love the website! I do believe in a pre-tribulation rapture, but there will by many Christians who are left behind.
No doubt that there will be Christians who see the rise of the AC.
Adam, I was brought up pre-trib (and after 50 years of study, I no longer believe it, but that is beside the point) and they never taught then that some would be left behind, simply because they did not agree with this doctrine. Now I have noticed since the Left Behind series and some other things, they now teach that some will be left behind. On what Scriptural basis, since I’m assuming that you believe that no Christian is appointed to God’s wrath, do you say that many will be left behind? By what criteria are some judged to that, and does that not negate the whole Christians not being appointed to God’s wrath? For that matter, when they talk about tribulation Christians, is that not an oxymoron under this belief, given that pre-trib equates the tribulation with God’s wrath, and NO Christians are appointed to God’s wrath? Should there even be tribulation Christians given your definitions?
Christians will surely see the antichrist as he will be alive for years prior to the tribulation, but they will not know he is is the antichrist at that time (just probably some other world leader at that time) given they will be raptured prior to the mid point of the Tribulation (which is the correct timing that antichrist will be revealed). The tribulation saints will see him, not the Church who is raptured well before he is revealed. Perhaps we already see him, strong chance given the way the nations are aligning and the convergence of prophecy that is occurring. All my teaching is self-taught from reading all main opinions on subjects and study of the Bible. Have not attended any church since I was 16 (now in my 50s). There is too much scripture pointing to the pre-trib rapture, and too many questions not answered in the Bible for the rapture to occur during or after the Tribulation. Of course the two witnesses do get raptured at the mid point! Blessings
So Wayne, if Im correct here……….. are you saying that you believe in a mid or shortly after rapture? This is what i am beginning to believe after years of being “taught” the pre-trib rapture.
I don’t believe in Mid-Trib. My position is after that.
Read 2 thess 2:3-4
I referenced 2 Thess 2 in my article
To begin on this subject…none of us have the right to opinion or personal interpretation…esp when the Word speaks plainly and clearly on the subject at hand…He commands us to call no man rabbi father or teacher, which means that He is looking for ones who become nothing, ones who die daily, as Paul did…so He can say what He wants, and do what He wants through us…the only kind of life acceptable, so we become a Holy Temple unto, some day His Glory will fill up that temple…not built by the hands of man. Concerning Matthew 24 and II Thessalonians….in both places He says, the next thing to happen will be the apostasy, the man standing in the temple claiming to be the Messiah of every religion. As we know the whole world is ripe for this…and He said 2000 years ago…I came to my own, and they received me not….but one will come in my name, you will receive Him readily. The world is watching and waiting…looking for such a one…”whether He be the devil or God…they all clamor for someone to save them from the condition the world is in…which the True and only Savior of the world came already came to save us out of the world, since when He comes back, will destroy the world in its present form, and this counterfeit impostor who sets Himself in the temple of God, as if God. The Word, and not paying attention to what men preach and say…or what I think on the matter, shows us that the Last Trump, the Trumpet Call of God….is the same as the 7th Trump, which II Thessalonians explains the first letter to them, by saying I am telling you not to be alarmed about when this rapture event will take place, at that trumpet, and when the man claiming to god is revealed…now even the elect will be deceived, if they love their life, and their minds are on earthly things….you old man will believe it is the Christ of God above…and will believe this is His Christ is setting up in that temple to set up His millennial reign….since you remain unwilling to forfeit your life daily now. you will not be willing to shed your blood for Him then!!! Do not remain in your sin nature, He wants to become your life and existence…quit making false claims you know aren’t real…Let Him begin to deal with you outside the gates of Jerusalem and this temporary temple…so He can receive you unto Himself for the New Jerusalem, which will come down at the end of the 7000 years! The one He is building… so the One Who made you and I will be with us forever, if we continue to resist the other one, and expose him, at the cost of our lives and this corrupt world…he doesn’t want us to remain in the deception His enemy is selling to the world…just remember, His wrath doesn’t fall on this world until after the Trumpet Call!!!
Hello,
I stumbled across your writings tonight while looking for something else. It usually doesn’t take long for an author to bear false witness, especially as it pertains to Prophecy…..especially when it includes a “Word from the Lord” or is hostile towards a Bible believing/teaching Christian. I thought that’s exactly where you were headed but was very impressed by your wisdom to give Sgripture “as reproof, doctrine and correction in righteousness” (quotes do not mean that my words are absolutely correct or evem in the right order but rather that I chose that section of God’s Word to commend you but did not actually look it up). Too many times we begin our descent with our own thoughts which I generally find to be untrustworthy. We do better to listen to the Holy Spirit as we write to a brother of the faith.. I’m anxious to read on but Im compelled to make one point for your careful consideration if the Lord will. All your references to when the ani-christ should be revealed would mean something entirely different from where you are now. Consider this. If the “Lord’s Appearing” were a reference to Him Coming in Glory to defeat the anti-christ and his wicked false prophet and Armageddon……rather than to rapture the Church……….your timing would be off by 3 1/2 years and the Church May never even see a glimpse as they would all be meeting the Lord in th air and taken from this earth for a time. Surely, their eyes would be heaven-bound and fixated on the King of Kings. I doubt thy would see anyone else. Those who remain,would most certainly “fall away”’even as 144,000 of God’s elect seek them out and encourage them before they take the seal. The point is, I don’t beleve the Lord’s feet touch the ground (as thy do later in Jerusalem) and since we (including the dead in Christ) are caught up in the clouds with Him, my question is “Will anyone left behind see Him”? That’s the only sighting we need to be concerned with as Christians. Prophecy is very difficult to follow and I love your color coding to help with grouping and paralleling Scripture, I have a very difficult time until I can get a feel for the order of events. Helps me keep people, places and comments in some sort of chronological order. I read on!???????????????? eagerly anticipating more Scripture as your guide. God Bless!
Thanks for reading with an open mind Bill. I’m glad you like the color coding.
First off, I get a kick (sarcastically) when people tend to use scripture out of context; I was looking a timeline for the end times and it mentioned “The rapture” using 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 as a reference….but just take a step back to verse 15 and there’s the brilliantly displayed phrase “…the coming of our Lord…” which sums up the remaining verses; Ergo, a ‘pre-tribulation rapture’ is unbiblical.
I have yet to see anywhere that says Jesus comes 2 more times (Rapture then his Return). He only comes back once, and that’s when the [actual phrase used] First Resurrection happens.
1 Thessalonians 4 actually starting in verse 13, this dealt with their worry over their departed loved ones. Paul was explaining comfort that they would indeed be reunited at the return of Jesus.
The falling away is happening. I had a Pastor exhort is belief in a Pre-tribulation rapture, and even when I pointed out biblical reference, he said “Listen to Dr. Irvin Baxter”. At first I was like, “Is he for real? Taking his advice from man, not the Bible?”
So I researched Irvin Baxter, who is NOW a post-tribber…..which undoubtedly “Changed” this Pastor’s ‘theology’.
You mean to tell me, you’d base your end times studies on an opinion of a man, one who ONLY studies end times?
Tell me that’s not a spell for disaster; You cannot Cherry Pick the Bible; If that were so, why would God include all these things?
To study the Bible in Context requires patience, and the Holy Spirit as your guide.
I know what it’s like to see people cling to a position that the Bible refutes and put their faith in the teachings of “godly” men.
Will Christians see the Antichrist? Yes, a generation God-fearing Christians and Jews will experience Satan’s Antichrist. Although it is premature to identify the Antichrist, it’s wise to be informed about foreign affairs. For example, Austria has a soon-to-be chancellor, and he should be closely scrutinized: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sebastian_Kurz and God-fearing Christians need to be “spiritually” prepared, so they become “overcomers” by God’s grace.
As I posted on Facebook regarding Kurz: “His English is good (but he has a thick accent). He’s charismatic (much more so when speaking German than English). He’s young. He has a nickname that roughly means “someone who can walk on water”. He knows world leaders like Benjamin Netanyahu and Mahmoud Abbas because he was Foreign Minister of Austria previously. He comes from the same country as Hitler. I can see why some people about him…
At the moment, I don’t think he’s the Antichrist. I question his ruthlessness and I don’t have a good sense of whether he’s arrogant. He seems more comparable to a right-wing version of Justin Trudeau (Prime Minister of Canada) or Emmanuel Macron (President of France). However, I will keep a watch on him because he’s unusual.”
just read revelations 14:14 this is when the great taking up happens which means everything that happens before it has to happen for this to take place.
You make an interesting point. Some see Revelation 14:14 as a depiction of the Rapture.
Right on… People sometimes forget that 2nd Thess is a deeper explanation to 1st Thess in case of the timing of the gathering (rapture). Christians will see the Antichrist, some will be beheaded (Revelation 6:9 & 20:4). Christians were promised to escape the “wrath”, not the tribulation (1 Thess 1:10 & 5:9). Jesus is descending in 1 Thess 4:16; if Jesus is coming down from heaven in this passage, then why do some people still claim this proves we will be called up to heaven at the time of the rapture?
The Father doesn’t beat up the Bride before He gives her to His Son. The tribulation hour is the time of Jacobs trouble which is for Israels Salvation. The gathering together of the Saints and the Coming of the Lord are all found in the Day of the Lord which is not a literal day but a time period lasting 7 years according to Daniels 70th week of prophecy. Paul told the Thessalonians not to be alarmed or worried that the Rapture, which is our gathering together to Christ had come because that will not happen until an Apostasy or departure from the Faith happen first by many “Christians”. The anti-christ had not been revealed yet in Paul’s Day and Paul was encouraging the Saints of His day that since He was not revealed yet that the Christians were not in the Day of the Lord. The only reason they would have been alarmed about being in the day of the Lord is if Paul had told them they were not going to be in the day of the Lord seeing the anti-christ. The mix up for most Christians comes in thinking that this scripture in Thesselonians is dealing with one event when it is actually dealing with 2 but in one time period. Later in this chapter Paul tells us that someone is now hindering the anti-christ from coming in his time. The person hindering him is the body of Christ indwelt by the Holy Spirit. The praying and believing saints of God filled with the Holy Spirit of power and glory hinder the work of Satan. The anti-christ has to be given power to overcome the saints in the tribulation hour because he is defeated by them in the Church Age of Grace or (Charis). The God of the bible has not destined His children to wrath. Those who believe we should go through the tribulation often believe that the destruction and evil of that day will help us draw closer to Jesus. However Jesus actually says the opposite will occur. “Because of the wickedness of that day the Love of most will grow cold.” Speaking of those in the tribulation they will not be filled with Love because they will not repent and receive the God of Love. Hope this rant helps someone. Secretly we all want to be Pre-Trib rapture believers. No one wants to go through hell on earth. However if for some absurd reason God sends His bride through the tribulation we believe in a Pan trib. It will all pan out in the end.
It’s not “absurd” for someone to believe that the Lord will allow His followers to endure great persecution in the future. Look at what the Apostle Paul endured in his life after his conversion. Also Stephen. Christ, Himself, endured a brutally painful death before He rose from the dead.
God wants a purified, spotless, and blameless spirit tested through tribulation no matter how beat up was the body. Anyway, God will give us glorified bodies when the time comes He will resurrect the Dead in Christ and rapture those who remain alive.
Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego was protected and unharmed in the Fiery Furnace and the Lord Jesus was even with them.
Daniel on the other hand was not harmed by the lions when he was thrown in the den.
So why can not God do the same for the saints who go through the tribulation and wrath?
Jesus warned us through the Laodicean Church. They say they do not need to buy gold refined through fire, because they claim they are rich, once saved always saved, salvation is by grace thru faith without works. But Faith without works is dead.
Choosing not to deny Jesus Christ and letting our heads be chopped off is the evidence of our faith.
Resurrection and Rapture is Post Trib:
Rev. 21:9 – New Jerusalem / Bride / Wife of the Lamb
Rev 16:15 – Sixth Angel pouring the Sixth Vial Judgement
Rev 16:19 – Seventh Angel pouring the Seventh Vial Judgement
Rev. 17:1 – The Great Whore / The Great City Mystery Babylon / The Adulterous and Idolatrous Bride/Wife
Connie,
I enjoy reading your comments because I am on the same road as you….the minority. Are you able to receive email? I have some questions I’d like to get a feel where you stand. Regarding biblical untruths involving typical pretrib definitions in revelation that do not fit.
Just to let you know Ezra, Connie has two blogs which you can find at the following links:
https://endtimesstudies.blogspot.com/
https://bibleconundrumsandcontroversy.blogspot.com/
Thanks Wayne. Haven’t heard much from you lately. How is the book coming?
I think I’m close to finishing it, but each time I think I’m just about done I find that I still have more work to do on it. lol
If you are like my son, you’ll never truly be satisfied that you have gotten everything in that you want to get in. Like I told him, at some point you just have to accept that if it is ever to be done, you have to just stop at some point and end it. You can always write book 2. lol
I’ve been trying to reduce its length because it originally was too long for most people. I’m really close to completing it. I really want it done.
That’s too bad that you have to reduce it, although I know exactly what you mean, as my articles are too long for people too. I’ve had complaints. lol I like thoroughness though, as it leaves no room for loopholes and such. I guess people’s attention spans have become greatly reduced these days.
I may post some of what I leave out on this site. We’ll see.
If you go to my blogs, which Wayne posted below and contact me, I can give you my email.
Actually I guess they are listed above my comment, not below. lol
Preach it! 🙂
The day of the Lord simply means a period when God pours out His wrath on the world. It begins at the start of the Tribulation, proceeds through the Tribulation (via the seal, trumpet and vial judgments), continues on the final day of the Tribulation when Jesus returns to earth in glory (the Second Coming), and extends through the millennial reign and Great White throne judgment until the creation of new heavens and new earth. It is important to note that the day of the Lord begins with the Tribulation. If the unleashing of God’s wrath and judgment on the earth during the Tribulation is not part of the day of the Lord, then I wonder what constitutes the day of the Lord. The removal of the Church through the rapture is what triggers the Day of the Lord.
In 1 Thessalonians 5:4-5, Paul says to the Thessalonian believers: “But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. You are all sons of light and sons of day..” Believers will have no part in the Day of the Lord, because they will be raptured before the day of the Lord begins with the Tribulation. Thus, Paul says we’re not in darkness that this Day should overtake us as a thief; we belong to the light. We don’t belong in the day of the Lord.
You say, “ Paul indicated (said) that CHRIST WOULD NOT COME until the “falling away” (apostasy) comes first and that the “man of sin” (the Antichrist) is revealed (discloses his true identity).” Then you say, it doesn’t mean what it says. Really? Then why did he say it if he didn’t mean it? I seem to remember someone else saying “Yea, hath God said…..”? He didn’t want her to believe God either. Yes, it does mean what it says. God always means what He says. That is why we are told that prophecy is not of private interpretation, because we are to take it as meaning what it says. It says that Christ will not come, gather the elect, and the Day of Christ (Day of the Lord) begin until the apostasy and the man of sin is revealed. And that is exactly what it means. Not accepting what it says doesn’t change the truth.
The Day of Christ and the Day of the Lord are the same thing. Christ is the Lord. 2 Thess. 2:1-3 says “Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand….for that day will not come, except…..” It says in chronological order that Christ will come (2nd coming) and gather the elect, and then that the day of Christ (the Day of the Lord) will occur. But that day (the day when these three things happen) will not come until the apostasy and antichrist is revealed. So the context is putting the Coming of the Lord at the Day of Christ and our gathering unto Him, AFTER the apostasy and revealing of antichrist. There is no need to jump through hoops to make it mean otherwise, for it is clear as a bell what it says and the order given.
Nowhere in Scripture does it say that the Day of the Lord begins with the tribulation. Nowhere. I challenge you to give me one verse that says so. For that matter, calling Daniel’s 70th week the tribulation is a misnomer. Nowhere in Scripture is it ever referred to in that way. Nowhere. Years ago someone created an erroneous definition that is not given in Scripture, and it stuck and has misled ever since. The only tribulation mentioned is the great tribulation which begins at the abomination and is cut short of the length of Daniel’s 70th week to accommodate the trumpet and vial judgments. Christ said that He would gather His elect at His coming, in Matthew 24 and Paul reiterates that here in 2 Thessalonians, as does John in Rev. 14. They are in agreement, as Scripture should be when interpreted correctly. They agree that the gathering of the elect, the saints, which is the Church, occurs after the antichrist is revealed, and further Christ puts it after the sun and moon go dark. If you study the O.T. references to the Day of the Lord, it says that the heavenly signs which come BEFORE the Day of the Lord is that the sun and moon will go dark, the stars will fall, there will be earthquakes, etc. Christ, in Matthew, says that He returns and gathers the elect AFTER those heavenly events. And if you look carefully you will see that the phrase that nobody knows the day or hour refers to this very coming, not a pre-trib rapture which Christ never mentioned. You will find these same celestial signs in the sixth seal, that is because they come BEFORE the Day of the Lord to warn people that the Day of the Lord is coming soon.
The Thessalonians were troubled by the thought that the Day of the Lord had come, because they were believing false doctrines being spread abroad and credited to Paul. Paul reminds them that this is NOT what He taught them. That HE taught them that the Day of the Lord would occur at the Second Coming when Christ gathers His elect, and that before that occurred these other things would be a sign they were coming. Therefore, had the Day occurred, they would have seen these things first, and be out of here before the DOL began. They had not listened to what he had taught them, just as people today don’t pay attention to what is actually written in the Scriptures, but twist them all around to suit themselves. Hence they were all mixed up and upset because of their error in not understanding the truth. That is how first century readers could have thought themselves in the Day of the Lord. They were believing lies, just as people do today and will have no idea what is really occurring when it doesn’t happen the way they are expecting.
If you don’t think the Day of the Lord will be a day of rejoicing for those Christians which are left, if it doesn’t occur before Daniel’s 70th week, think again. They will have suffered horrors beyond imagining and will finally be getting out of it. How much more will you look for rescuing when you are suffering through unimaginable horrors? How much more will you rejoice to see that day?
Now here is food for your thought. During the great tribulation who is actually suffering? The ungodly? No, the only ones suffering are those who will not take the mark of the beast. They are the ones who go on merrily with life as before, for they have bowed the knee to Satan and made their damnation secure. They can buy and sell with no problem. Their trouble doesn’t begin until the great tribulation is over, and the trumpets begin. Satan has no need to persecute them. If the great tribulation is God’s wrath, how is it that the ungodly go unpunished, while the Christians are martyred left and right? Think about it. The reason for this, is as I mentioned above. The great tribulation (there is no “tribulation”) is not the Day of the Lord. The signs which portend the Day of the Lord, Christ said will occur after the great tribulation is cut short, and before He returns. The Day of the Lord commences at His return when He gathers His elect. There is only one coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. Every time it speaks of His coming, it is the Second Coming. A pre-trib rapture is nowhere found described in Scripture, but only wished to be seen and derived from inserting something that is desired, but actually nowhere taught. 2 Thessalonians puts the Day of Christ (the Lord) and our gathering together at the Second Coming. It very clear except to those who refuse to acknowledge it. Yes, the day of the Lord cannot begin until the Church is in heaven, but you mistake the persecution of the Church by Satan (the great tribulation) as God’s wrath. Nowhere does Scripture define those two things as the same thing. One is God’s vengeance upon the wicked (Gr. “thumos” or “orge”) the other is the persecution of the saints by Satan (Gr. “thlipsis”). The word “thlipsis” is the word used every time we are told that we will experience tribulation on this earth. It means the same thing each and every time. Persecution, not God’s wrath. And it is the word used in Matthew 24.
It doesn’t matter what tense you want to use of the words, the fact is, Paul said that they were in error on their understanding, and that what he taught them was that the Day of Christ (Day of the Lord), His Second Coming, and His gathering us would not occur before the apostasy and revealing of the antichrist who would sit on the throne and declare himself God, so that they should have known that it wasn’t the Day of the Lord or that they had missed the Second Coming and gathering.
As is the situation with every time I see this verse in 1 Thess. 5:2-3 presented, it is convenient that the next verse is left out It says that WE should (not will, because most do not really know what the Scriptures say, so it is SHOULD) not have it come as a surprise and be overtaken as a thief. How can you not be surprised, if you do not know the signs, and think it can happen at any time? Most people do not believe the signs Christ gave, so they will be surprised at what happens. They create their own theology. As for the peace and safety when it occurs, if you check, when the two witnesses are killed, people think that all the horrors that have been happening will now end, and they party hearty. It is precisely at that time, when they think it is all over and they have won, and there is peace and safety that Christ will return, at the last trumpet – when the mystery of God (the Church) will be finished, when He will judge the dead saints and prophets and reward them (Bema Seat), Christ will begin His reign over the world, and God’s wrath will finally have come. (Read Rev. 10 &11) After some background info in Chapters 12 and 13, the narrative picks up again chronologically with the resurrection/rapture at the end of Chap. 14, and God’s wrath is announced several times over in 15-16, as the vials of God’s wrath (the contents of the seventh trumpet is the seven vials) are poured out.
Consider this, if Christians are not appointed to wrath, and you believe the seals are God’s wrath, then explain how it is that the only ones suffering in the fifth seal are God’s people and not the ungodly? And why are they asking God when He is going to start getting vengeance for what was done to them, if He has already begun His wrath? Why does God say that, no, He cannot begin taking out vengeance until the rest of the Christians who need to be martyred in the great tribulation as they were have been killed? He hasn’t begun His wrath yet, that’s why. And if a pre-trib rapture kicked off the Day of the Lord, and we are told that Elijah will return BEFORE the Day of the Lord, should you not be seeing Him if you expect the rapture at any time?
I agree that the Day of the Lord is a period of time, in fact I am of the opinion that just as the Sabbath is the weekly day of the Lord, the Sabbath rest for God’s people, the Day of the Lord in this case is the last 1000 year day in a 7000 year week. It is the millennium, the day of rest we have been promised. The Day of the Lord commences with Christ’s Second Coming, when He gathers His elect at the last trumpet before He pours out God’s wrath in the vial judgments.
A quote from the first paragraph of your comment says: “You say, ‘Paul indicated (said) that CHRIST WOULD NOT COME until the “falling away” (apostasy) comes first and that the “man of sin'(the Antichrist) is revealed (discloses his true identity).” Then you say, it doesn’t mean what it says. Really?”
Well, you misquoted me. In my message, I never made the above statement that you have credited to me. I was only quoting the author of the above article on this website. Please go back and read my comment again. I began by saying “An excerpt from your article says: “………….” which means I took those words from the author’s article on this website.
Anyway, I asked a very simple question in my comment. My question was: “Why would the Thessalonians be troubled if they believed the false teaching that the Day of the Lord had come? Your answer was: “The Thessalonians were troubled by the thought that the Day of the Lord had come, because they were believing false doctrines being spread abroad and credited to Paul.” I am sure you know that you did not answer the question. I am not surprised that you couldn’t answer this simple question because I never expected you to be able to come up with a meaningful answer.
If the day of the Lord, the Rapture and the Second Coming all happened on the same day as post-tribulationists teach, why should the Thessalonians be very troubled by the thought that the day of the Lord had already come? When they heard the false reports that the day of the Lord had arrived, they should have rejoiced since the Day of the Lord is supposed to happen together with the Rapture and Second Coming according to you. I would expect them to rejoice since their day of deliverance had also arrived. But they did not rejoice. They were shaken in mind and troubled. This tells us that Paul did not teach post-tribulation.
YOUR QUESTION: “Consider this, if Christians are not appointed to wrath, and you believe the seals are God’s wrath, then explain how it is that the only ones suffering in the fifth seal are God’s people and not the ungodly? And why are they asking God when He is going to start getting vengeance for what was done to them, if He has already begun His wrath? Why does God say that, no, He cannot begin taking out vengeance until the rest of the Christians who need to be martyred in the great tribulation as they were have been killed? He hasn’t begun His wrath yet, that’s why.”
MY ANSWER: First of all, the Bible tells us that “nobody was found worthy to open the seals in heaven, except Jesus Christ”. So, it is Jesus who opens the seals in heaven. The opening of the seals results in calamities on earth. How then can you argue that the seal judgment is not the wrath of God, when it is Christ who initiates these judgments from heaven by opening the seals? Does that make sense? If Christ does not open the seals, there will be no seal judgment on earth. Period. So, who is responsible for the seal judgments? Isn’t it the One who opens the seals? I don’t even know why this should be something that anyone would want to argue about. Even the Antichrist cannot begin his atrocities until God intentionally permits him to do so. The opening of the first seal releases the Antichrist.
You need to understand that the entire tribulation period is a time when God pours out His wrath on a rebellious world. God is sovereign and in complete control even during the Tribulation. Whatever happens during the tribulation happens only because God permits it. It is incorrect to say that only believers suffer the seals judgment. The reason that the martyred believers are seen under the altar is because they refused to take the mark of the beast or worship the Antichrist.
The first half of Daniel’s seventh week is part of the Tribulation because God begins pouring out His wrath in the 1st half with the seal judgments. The second half is much more severe than the first half and that’s the reason the 2nd half is called the GREAT Tribulation.
God has promised that the Church will not experience the wrath of the Tribulation period. This is not the first time that God would be removing the righteous before punishing the wicked. There are precedents in the Bible. There are types/shadows of a pre-tribulation rapture in the Bible. For example, in Genesis 6, God did not allow Noah to experience the flood. Noah and his family were the only righteous people on earth at the time. Before God poured out His wrath on the world, He made sure that Noah and His family were removed and taken to safety – in the ark. While the flood was going on, Noah and his family did not experience the flood at all. They were enjoying their lives inside the ark while the whole world was perishing.
Another example can be found in Genesis 19:12-15 where two angels asked Lot and his family to get out of Sodom before the city was destroyed. God waited for the righteous (Lot and his family) to leave the city of Sodom before pouring out His wrath on the city. The deliverance of Lot and two of his daughters by divine intervention is typical of the deliverance of the Church in the Rapture before the Tribulation.
So, it shouldn’t surprise anyone that God would remove the Church before the end-time Tribulation begins. It is perfectly in line with God’s character to do so.
What view of the Rapture did the early Church father hold? What did these men, some whom were taught personally by the Apostles of Jesus Christ, believe? Were these men who became pillars of the early church Pre-Tribulation or Post-Tribulation Rapture believers? While we need to be remember that the writings of these ancient Church fathers are not on par with Scripture, it is nonetheless important that we know what the early church believed, especially about the Rapture of the Church. Let’s examine just three of them:
1) IRENAEUS (130 A.D. – 202 AD)
Irenaeus was a disciple of Polycarp. Polycarp learned his Christian faith from the apostle John. As well as writing the gospel that bears his name and a number of early letters, John wrote the Book of Revelation. There could be no better tutor other than the Lord Jesus himself. Both Polycarp and Irenaeus knew John personally.
Irenaeus later became bishop of the church in Lyons, France and is famous for his five-volume treatise titled “AGAINST HERESIES” which described and challenged all false teaching from the emerging cults of his day. Irenaeus believed in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church. In his published work titled “Against Heresies” 5:29, he wrote the following:
“..And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.”
Irenaeus believed that the Rapture of the Church occurred prior to the beginning of the Great Tribulation.
2) CYPRIAN (200 AD – 258 AD).
Cyprian, the bishop of the early church at Carthage was beheaded for his faith in 258 AD and was a great pillar of the early church. He shepherded his church through intense Roman persecution and was well known for his eloquent treatises in defense of the faith. In his work titled “Treatise of Cyprian”, he wrote:
“…We who see that terrible things have begun, and know that still more terrible things are imminent, may regard it as the greatest advantage to depart from it as quickly as possible. Do you not give God thanks, do you not congratulate yourself, that by an early departure you are taken away, and delivered from the shipwrecks and disasters that are imminent? Let us greet the day which assigns each of us to his own home, which snatches us hence, and sets us free from the snares of the world and restores us to paradise and the kingdom.”
Like Irenaeus, Cyprian, a highly prominent early church father believed in an “…early deliverance” for believers who would be “delivered” from judgments which would be devastating and global in nature. He taught that the Body of Christ would be delivered from the Day of the Lord.
Cyprian taught his followers that, “God has not appointed us to wrath, but salvation…” (1 Thess. 5:9), and joyfully encouraged his church to expect to be “taken away” before the Tribulation begins. Indeed, he exhorted his church to eagerly anticipate the mansions Jesus had gone to heaven to prepare for them individually, as detailed in John 14.
3) EPHRAIM the Syrian (306 AD – 373 AD).
There is a genuine sense of urgency about Ephraim’s writings. A deacon in the large church in Syria, he later became the bishop of the church at Nisibis. In his work titled “The Last Times – Two”, Ephraim wrote:
“…See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: ‘Woe to those who desire to see the day of the Lord!’ For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins. And so, brothers most dear to me, it is the eleventh hour, and the end of the world comes to the harvest, and angels, armed and prepared, hold sickles in their hands, awaiting the empire of the Lord.”
Ephraim believed in and taught a pre-Tribulation rapture.
The above is just a flavor of early church teaching. Each and every church father, where their writings exists, testify to a belief in a Rapture of the church. Each of these fathers all place this Rapture of the church before the Tribulation.
These writings on their own do not prove the existence of a Pre-Tribulation Rapture, nor can they be regarded in any way as authoritative as Scripture. They do, however, clearly demonstrate that the teaching of a Pre-Tribulation Rapture is not a “modern invention” that supposedly began a few hundred years ago.
What their writings also prove, without doubt, is that the teaching of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture has been a part of Christian beliefs since the earliest days of the Apostles.
One more thing: The believers that suffer during the Tribulation are those who got saved after the Rapture of the Church. They are not a part of the Church. The Church is removed prior to the beginning of the Tribulation.
Think about this: The book of Revelation (chapter 7:1-8) tells us that God chooses 144,000 Jewish evangelists to witness and preach the Gospel in the first half of Daniel’s 70th week. In addition, God sends Two Witnesses to preach the gospel most likely in the second half of Daniel’s 70 week, during the Tribulation. Have you ever wondered why God would be using the 144,000 and the Two Witnesses to preach the Gospel during this period? Think about that! The most likely reason is that the Church is no longer around on earth. Normally, it is the duty of the Church to preach the gospel and evangelize the while world. Jesus Christ gave the great commission to the Church in Matthew 28 to preach the gospel. However, once the Church is removed in the pre-tribulation rapture, there will be no one to preach the gospel. So, God will be using the 144,000 Jewish evangelists and the Two Witnesses to minister during the 70th week of Daniel (i.e. during the Tribulation).
As a result of the ministry of the 144,000 evangelists, a large multitude of people will get saved during the Tribulation. This is the multitude that John saw in Revelation 7:9 immediately after he finished describing the 144,000 evangelists. The great multitude of believers are the fruits of the ministry of the 144,000.
I’m not going to debate further, not because I can’t, but because I have learned it is not productive to wrangle with people who are so adamant about the pre-trib view that they can’t see how many Scriptures oppose it. It does not seem, from your assertion that the seals are God’s wrath simply because Christ opens them, that you know what the scroll is, nor what the significance of the seals are, nor why Christ has to be the one to open them. If you understood what it is, you would understand why it isn’t God’s wrath. The second little one is God’s wrath. And I am not concerned with what some of the church elders thought, for they were wrong on more than one issue, as shown by the fact that they did not all agree on everything. I prefer to just use the Bible as my source and Christ’s discourse on the subject. But I will leave you to your belief. You will find out the error of it soon enough. When the temple goes up, I hope you will not be deceived, as Christ warned us not to be, and will realize that you will be going through the tribulation or rather probably dying in it, as most will. I wish you well during that time. May God give you the strength to die for Him. God bless.
The Day of the Lord begins with the Tribulation, because the entire Tribulation is a time of outpouring of God’s wrath. The Day of the Lord cannot begin at the end of the Tribulation at the Second Coming of Christ, because that would contradict what Paul said about the beginning of the day of the Lord in 1 Thessalonians 5:2.-3, where Paul tells us exactly when the day of the Lord will begin. He says the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night (i.e. unexpectedly) at a time of relative peace on earth (when they shall say “peace and safety”). This clearly rules out any possibility of the day of the Lord beginning at the end of the Tribulation during the return of Christ to earth. Nobody in his right mind would describe the condition of the world as peaceful immediately after the great Tribulation. Therefore, going by what Paul tells us in 1 Thess. 5:2-3, the period immediately after the Tribulation will not be the time that the day of the Lord will commence, because this period is not a time of “peace and safety”. After the earth has witnessed three-and-a -half years of unprecedented calamity, devastation and cataclysmic wrath, there will be no peace and safety on earth at the end of the Tribulation, which means the end of the Tribulation and the time of Christ’s return to earth will not be the time that the day of the Lord will start. If you insist that the Day of the Lord occurs at Christ’s second coming at the end of the Tribulation, then you’re deliberately contradicting Paul’s statement in 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3.
The day of the Lord begins at the start of the Tribulation and extends through the Second Coming of Christ to the millennial reign. The Tribulation is the initial phase of the day of the Lord. The Tribulation will begin at a time when the world is experiencing relative peace, and everybody is going about their normal activities peacefully. Then calamity will strike suddenly and unexpectedly as the day of the Lord begins. This is why the Bible uses the imagery of a thief in the night to describe the onset of the day of the Lord/Tribulation. Furthermore, the Tribulation is a period of outpouring of God’s wrath, which is a major characteristic of the day of the Lord.
In 2 Thessalonians 2, the Thessalonians were shaken in mind and troubled because they received false reports saying that the day of the Lord (the Tribulation) was already in progress. They erroneously thought that the persecutions they were experiencing at the hands of the Roman government were a manifestation of the day of the Lord. They thought the day of the Lord has already begun. As such, they became worried because Paul had previously taught them in his first letter (1 Thessalonians) that they would be delivered from the wrath of the Tribulation by being raptured before the day of the Lord could begin. But now, they were being told that the day of the Lord had already begun. They felt they had missed the rapture. The fact that they were troubled suggests that Paul had taught them a pre-Tribulation rapture. Had Paul taught them a post-tribulation rapture, they would not have been worried at all, because they would know that the day of the Lord must be endured before Christ could come back for them. So, the only reason why they were troubled was the fact that Paul had taught them a pre-Tribulation rapture.
In verse 3, Paul writes to calm them down and to reassure them that the day of the Lord could not be present unless two signs were present – a falling away and the revelation of the man of sin (Antichrist). When the falling away and the revelation of the Antichrist are seen, then that would be the evidence that the day of the Lord has started, But since these two signs had not yet occurred, they could be certain that the were not yet in the day of the Lord.
Food for thought: If the day of the Lord begins at the end of the Tribulation as you teach, Paul would have listed three signs to be fulfilled for the day of the Lord, namely: a falling away, revelation of the Antichrist, and the Tribulation. But Paul did not include the Tribulation on his list of signs to be fulfilled before the day of the Lord. This is because the Tribulation itself is a part of the day of the Lord. If the Tribulation was not a part of the day of the Lord, Paul would have listed it as one of the things that will happen before the day of the Lord could begin.
The other thing is this: God has not called the Church to die for Him. There is no salvation in being a martyr. Salvation only comes by faith Christ and acceptance of the finished work of Christ on the cross. Jesus Christ died for us. If you’re looking forward to dying for God during the Tribulation, you’re mistaken because your blood cannot save you. God has already died for you; He has not called you to die for Him in order for you to be saved. If you think the suffering and death of Christ on the cross is not enough for your salvation and, somehow, you feel you must suffer and die during the great Tribulation in order to be saved, you’re mistaken. Christianity is not Islam where people die for their god in the erroneous belief that their own death will buy them salvation.
I guess part of the reason for the confusion of post-tribulationists is their failure to distinguish between Israel and the Church. God has different programmes for the Church and for Israel. Are you aware that the Bible also calls the Tribulation “the time of Jacob’s trouble?” (Jeremiah 30:7). Have you ever wondered why the entire tribulation period is called the time of Jacob’s trouble? It is called the time of Jacob’s trouble because it is primarily meant for Jacob (Israel), not the Gentile Church. Israel is another name for Jacob. The Tribulation is not meant for the Church. It is meant for Israel (also called Jacob).
Daniel 9:24 says, “Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to anoint the most Holy”. This is a timed prophecy whose major consequence is concerned only with Israel, not the Gentile Church. In the above verse, the angel told Daniel “Seventy weeks (or 490 years) are determined for your people.” This is a specific prophesy meant for Daniel’s people, the Jews. Of this 490 years that were determined (set aside) for Daniel’s people, we know that 483 years have already been fulfilled, so there is 7 years left. The remaining 7 years will be fulfilled in future and are called the 70th week of Daniel. The future 70th week of Daniel is meant for the Jews, not the gentile Church. Without this basic understanding, it is impossible to make sense of Tribulation prophecies, thus the reason for the confusion and inaccurate teachings of post-tribulationists.
The future Tribulation (70th week of Daniel) has everything to do with the Jews and nothing to do with the Church. Romans 11:16-24 depicts Israel as distinct from the Church. This passage speaks of God cutting off the natural branches of the olive tree and grafting in the wild branches; the “natural branches” are the Jews, and the “wild branches” are us the Gentiles. The “olive tree” is the collective people of God. The “natural branches” (Jews) are “cut off” the tree for unbelief, and the “wild branches” (believing Gentiles) are grafted in. The “natural branches” are still distinct from the “wild branches,” so that God’s covenant with His people is literally fulfilled. The Jews as a nation will be grafted back in during the Tribulation and after the Church (comprising mainly Gentiles) has been removed through the rapture. Romans 11:25 says: For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion; that blindness in part has happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in”.
The “fullness of the Gentiles” refers to the time when the Church age comes to a close with the Rapture. Then the remaining 7 years in Israel’s prophetic clock will begin in what is known as the Tribulation period. The fullness of the Gentiles would have come in with the end of the Church age. The Rapture marks the end of the Church age and them God will resume Israel’s timetable again. So, we see that the Tribulation period is meant primarily for Israel and not the Church. Although many non-Jews will get saved during the Tribulation period, they are not regarded as members of the Church. Rather, they are called Tribulation saints.
The pre-tribulation rapture gives the best explanation of why the saints have to be resurrected after the return of the Lord to the earth in Rev 20:4. Since the Lord has returned from to earth with the raptured saints, why does He then need to resurrect the saints again after He has returned to earth? The only logical explanation is that these saints were not believers at the time of the rapture but were converted afterwards and for the most part martyred during the tribulation and ‘held under the altar’ (Rev 6.9- 11) and come out of the great tribulation (Rev 7.13-14). As they became saints during the tribulation, they have a part in the first resurrection (of the saved) and not the second resurrection (of the damned) (Rev 20.6, 14).
A post-tribulation rapture would be a classic non-event. There would be few living believers in Christ to be raptured. They would all have been killed, for such is the fate of those who refuse to take the mark of the beast [Antichrist] and worship his image. Submission to Antichrist is the only way to stay alive during that horrible period. For those, however, who take the mark of the beast and worship his image there is an even worse fate: “If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture And they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.” (Rev. 14 v.9-11).
May the Lord help us to be prepared always for the rapture. “Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.” (Titus 2:23).
God bless.
Just a few things to clarify, not debate. First I am not post-trib, I am last trump which is different. I was weaned on pre-trib and know all the Scriptures and teachings having to do with it, and I find holes all the way through it.
And because I am prepared to die for my faith doesn’t mean I don’t have salvation by faith. I am very tired of pre-tribbers insisting that if you expect that you may have to literally take up your cross, which Christ said we would have to do, that you are trying to earn your way to heaven. One has nothing to do with the other in that respect. Christ is willing that we should suffer. In fact He found no fault with the Smyrnan church, which is martyred. He has a special love for His battered and bruised bride in spite of what the pre-trib church thinks. They get a special crown. On the other hand He spews the arrogant Laodiceans, who think they have need of nothing, out of His mouth. We are told over and over that we will suffer for Christ and should expect this as part of accepting Him as our Savior.
People have been martyred for centuries and are continuing to be martyred around the world as I write this. God allows it for His glory. Do you have any idea how many people die for Christ daily? Close to 250 a day. Are they trying to earn their way to heaven? Do they not have salvation by faith? Who would go to a martyrs death without that faith to sustain them? After all, that’s all that happens to Christians during the tribulation. They die as martyrs at the hands of Satan and the beast. Nothing new in that.
1 Peter 4:12-19 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ’s sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, (at the Second Coming) ye may be glad also with exceeding joy. If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified. But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men’s matters. Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf. For the time is come that judgment MUST BEGIN at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.
BTW, the fullness of the Gentiles comes at the seventh and last trumpet. There are Scriptures that prove this, but I am not going to explain it. If you want to know, study the phrase. You want to believe what you want to believe and I am fine with that. I have fulfilled my obligation by giving you warning that this is a deceptive teaching. Just remember this warning when the temple goes up and you find you are still here so that you don’t lose faith. And that last verse you quoted? It says the blessed hope is the GLORIOUS APPEARING, not some secret one. God bless.
Hi Victor I can see that you will never understand Daniel 70th week or the last 7 years as you believe that the whole period is the tribulation and the last half being the Great Tribulation. If you have been studying carefully which I can see you haven’t , you would have known that the opening of the seals is what starts the 70th week of Daniel which Jesus fully explained in Matt 24 which correspond exactly with it. You are indeed right that Israel will not go through the great tribulation as they are the 144,000 mentioned in revelation. They certainly won’t be preaching though as if they want to live Jesus told them to flee.
The 1st seal represent the coming of the antichrist peacefully to deceive the nations as mentioned in Matt 24 and Luke 21.
Seal two tells you that peace was taken from the earth. Which basically means peace had to be there in the first place before it can be taken.
For anyone that has studied the bible in depth will know that The great Tribulation is only 45 days long. All the answers we need are in the scriptures but we need to have our minds open to listen to What other Christians are saying and be willing to change our way of thinking if the scriptures say something different. There is no such thing as pre tribulation rapture as Matt 24 clearly tells you that Jesus returns after the tribulation. To understand this though you need to know that The last seven is nowhere in the bible classified as the tribulation period. This is your biggest mistake in understanding what Jesus is saying. Until you understand this basic premise you will constantly be in error.
That’s all I am going to say
Blessings
An excerpt from your article says: “The Apostle Paul wrote to the church of the Thessalonians about the coming of Christ in 2 Thessalonians 2. Paul indicated that CHRIST WOULD NOT COME until the “falling away” (apostasy) comes first and that the “man of sin” (the Antichrist) is revealed (discloses his true identity).
The question is: Does this verse really say that Christ will NOT come until the apostasia comes first and the Antichrist is revealed? I don’t think so. What does the phrase “Day of Christ” in 2 Thess. 2:2 really mean? I believe it refers to the day of Christ’s wrath (also called day of the Lord which begins with the Tribulation). It does not refer to the day of Christ’s return for His Church. Otherwise, why would the Thessalonian believers be shaken in mind or troubled by the false reports that the day of Christ was at hand (verse 2). Verse 2 tells us that the Thessalonians were shaken in mind and troubled on hearing the false report that the “day of Christ” (day of the Lord) had come. The day of Christ’s return for His Church is supposed to be a day of rejoicing for all believers in Christ, which means the Thessalonian brethren ought to be rejoicing when they heard that the Day of the Lord was at hand. But instead of rejoicing, they were shaken in mind and troubled. Why would the Thessalonian brethren be shaken in mind and troubled at the report that the “day of Christ” was at hand (already present)?” For thinking people, this is food for thought!
Post-tribulationists are at a loss to explain how the first-century readers could have thought themselves to be already in the day of the Lord if that day occurred simultaneously with the coming of Christ for the church. That leaves no time for persecution during the day of the Lord. In the first chapter of 2 Thessalonians (1:5–10), Paul had just spoken of how God would afflict the unrighteous and reward the faithful in the day of the Lord. The readers knew that the opening period of that day would be tribulation to the ungodly and also a day of persecution for the saints, so the false teaching had led them to believe that they were already in that period.
To correct this error, Paul pointed first to “the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him” (2:1). “Our gathering together to Him” defines which aspect of Jesus’ coming the writer has in mind and reminds readers of the great event described in 1 Thess. 4:14–17, the gathering of those in Christ to meet Him in the air en route to be with the Father in heaven. The “coming of our Lord Jesus Christ” in verse one is not the glorious coming at the end of the Tribulation. Rather, it is the coming of Christ in the air to rapture His Church prior to the Tribulation. We know this because the second part of the sentence “our gathering together unto Him” specifies the aspect of His coming that is in view here. Paul wanted to emphasize that the day of the Lord cannot begin on earth before the Church is in heaven with the Father. Since Christ’s reappearance to take the believers to heaven had not yet occurred, the day of the Lord could not yet have begun. Therefore, the apostle asks them not to be shaken or troubled by the false message they had received (2:2a). The gathering together had not yet occurred; hence the day of the Lord had not yet begun.
Paul even specifies what the false teaching consists of. It was proposing that “the day of the Lord is present” (2:2b). The rendering of the verb ἐνέστηκεν (enestēken) in 2:2b as “is present” rather than as “will come” is very important, because that is the key to interpreting the difficult verse immediately following. English versions have, for the most part, consistently mistranslated this verb. Those with erroneous renderings include the KJV, the RSV, the NASB, the NASBU, the ESV, the NTV, the ASV, the ICB, and the NKJV. Only three versions consulted render the verb correctly. The correct rendering is“the day of the Lord is now here,” and the NRSV gives, “the day of the Lord is already here.” Either of these captures the intensive force of the perfect tense enestēken. That the perfect tense ἐνίσιημι(enistēmi) means “is present” cannot be doubted seriously in light of its usage elsewhere in the NT (Rom 8:38; 1 Cor 3:22; 7:26; Gal 1:4; Heb. 9:9).
When does the day of the Lord begin? Paul gives us an indication of when the day of the Lord will begin. In 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3, Paul says: “For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night, For when they say “Peace and safety!”, then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman and they shall not escape.” This passage makes it clear that the Day of the Lord will begin suddenly and unexpectedly at a time of relative peace and safety in the world. This rules out the possibility that the Day of the Lord will begin after the Tribulation when Jesus returns to earth in glory. By the last day of the great Tribulation, nobody in the world would be saying “peace and safety”, certainly not after three-and-a-half years of unprecedented castastrophes and mass killings on earth by the Antichrist coupled with the cataclysmic judgments and wrath unleashed by God on a rebellious world via the seals, trumpet and vial judgments. If Paul is correct in his writing in 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3, then clearly, the final day of the Tribulation is NOT the time when the Day of the Lord is going to begin. By the time Jesus returns to earth in glory on the final day of the Tribulation, the day of the Lord (the day of God’s wrath) has already been in progress for about 7 years. The day of the Lord begins at the start of the 7-year Tribulation when Christ begins to open the seal judgments in heaven (Revelation 6) and proceeds through the trumpet and vial judgments. This should not be difficult to figure out because the day of the Lord is not a 24-hour period but a period of time when God pours out His wrath on the world. God begins pouring out His wrath on the world at the very start of the Tribulation, shortly after the Rapture. It is the removal of the Church from the earth the triggers the Day of the Lord. Just as the Raptures occurs suddenly and unexpectedly without prior warning, so also the Day of the Lord begins suddenly and unexpectedly without warning, and at a time of relative peace in the world. This is the point that Paul makes in 1 Thessalonians 5:2.
Time will not permit me to go into scriptures to show that the Day of the Lord is a period of time and not just a 24-hour period and to show that it begins at the start of the Tribulation. That is a topic for another day. God bless.
Hi has anyone heard much about this Jared kushner guy?
I’ve heard of him, but I don’t believe he is the Antichrist.
Wayne,
I was once firmly in the pre-trib camp as that is all I’ve ever been taught, but I’m now leaning towards the post-trib view but have not yet fully embraced it. I am undecided. Some questions that seem to support a pre-trib viewpoint remain:
1. Why is the Church never mentioned again after Revelation chapter 3? Can you imagine reading a novel and the central character of the story suddenly disappears with no explanation? The Church is mentioned in the NT almost non-stop after Jesus’ resurrection and then after Revelation 3, nothing. This seems to support that the Church as we know it is no longer there during the end times. What happened to the Church?
2. What are we to make of verses like Mark 13:35 that teach us to always be on the watch for Jesus return?
“Therefore keep watch because you do not know when the owner of the house will come back–whether in the evening, or at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or at dawn.” It is clear from, this verse that Jesus is telling us we cannot know the time of his return. If his return cannot come until after the 3rd temple is built, or not until after the events of Matthew 24, then we have a very good idea of around the time when he will return. Verses like Mark 13:35 do not support that.
If there was a certain point of time when we can know when Jesus will return, then why would he tell us to always be constantly on the watch? If we could know around the time when Jesus would be return, wouldn’t that encourage slothfulness and apathy among some Christians in serving him? I think it would. Also, it seems clear from scripture that Jesus’ disciples believed that his return could be imminent, even DURING THEIR LIFETIMES.
3. Matthew 24:41 teaches us that during the rapture, two women will be grinding grain together, one will be taken, the other left behind. How is it that Christians would be working out in the open together with non-believers during the Great Tribulation when they are being terribly persecuted and hunted down by the antichrist?
If you can point to any answers to these questions in support of a post-trib rapture it would be most helpful in changing my position on the Rapture doctrine.
The fact that the Church isn’t mentioned is not a big deal to me. It’s clear in Revelation 12:17, 13:7, and 14:12 that Satan/the Antichrist is making war with those who believe in Christ. The martyrs of the fifth seal (Rev 6:9-11) are also believers in Christ (Rev 20:4).
Mark 13:35 focuses on the time of day of Christ’s return. I couldn’t tell you if Christ will return at dawn or during the evening. However, we can have a general idea of the timeframe when He will come (i.e. what events will precede His coming). If we could not know the general timeframe of His return He would not have told us about the signs of His coming. Also, the Pre-Trib doctrine encourages a lot of complacency regardless of our proximity to the end times since many people who believe in it don’t think they have to worry about the possibility of dealing with the persecution of the end times. I’ve seen people who think they don’t need to study Bible prophecy because they think they won’t be around for the events described in Revelation. You’re not complacent but I’ve seen many people who are.
With regards to Matthew 24:41, not every non-believer will possess the Mark of the Beast. Otherwise there would be no need for the Sheep and Goat Judgment in Matthew 25. The “sheep” in the Sheep and Goat Judgment are those who treated God’s people well in their time of need. Some non-believers will help God’s people during the persecution of the Antichrist. So, it’s possible for non-believers to work alongside believers during the time of the persecution of the Antichrist.
You may have noticed a lot of comments from a woman named Connie on this website. She’s very smart and unlike me grew up in a Pre-Trib environment before adopting a Post-Trib viewpoint. I encourage you to take a look at her writings because she once had to make the transition as you find yourself doing now. You can find her writings here:
http://endtimesstudies.blogspot.com/
http://bibleconundrumsandcontroversy.blogspot.com/
Your comments on the Sheep and Goat Judgement seem far-fetched. So there are two separate judgements? One for those non-believers who treated Christ’s people kindly during the Tribulation and one judgement for everybody else who didn’t? Are you telling me there is a way for a non-believer to receive salvation? Seriously? Then why not rapture both of them at once? Scripture is clear that the one and only way of salvation is for one to put their faith and trust in Jesus Christ.
You also mentioned in another post that the Antichrist will be to thorough in his persecution of believers and it will be so severe that no one would survive if those days were not shortened. Again, I ask how is it possible for all these non-believers who refused the Mark of the Beast to be helping all the believers who also refused the Mark of the Beast to be working out in the open side by side all over the place right under the Antichrists nose?
Also, we need to differentiate between Christians prior to the Tribulation and those who will become Christians during the Tribulation. Many will come to Christ during the Tribulation. To say that Satan is waging war against the Christians in the Tribulation period doesn’t necessarily prove that a rapture of pre-trib Chrisitians cannot take place. I need more to go on then that.
Hi Christ, I’m the Connie that Wayne referenced. I know you are struggling right now, because you want to find evidence to believe that the rapture could not possibly be post-tribulational, and by that I simply mean after the tribulation is cut short. There are several different timings that occur post-trib. You want to believe pre-trib because it is comforting, but something inside you (the Holly Spirit) is telling you that there are some conflicts and problems in reconciling that with Scripture. The first thing you must do is set aside all of our preconceived ideas about how things should occur, for the teachings that have been drilled into you do not always have a sound foundation. You must be willing to start from scratch to find the truth, and that is going to be extremely painful.
You ask why the church is not mentioned after Chapter 3. It is. We are called the saints. You see the church, as Wayne mentioned, in the martyrs of the fifth seal. You see them on the sea of glass when the martyrs from the tribulation show up. Anytime you see the word “saints” or “those who keep the commandments of Jesus” you are seeing the church. God does not merely call the church “The Church” throughout the N.T. He calls them the saints just as often. Believers are referred to in several ways throughout the Scriptures. Why should he refer to them as “The Church” in particular? Just because Christ addressed particular churches in chapters 2 & 3 doesn’t indicate that this is the only way He will address them. In fact, He is not addressing THE Church as a whole, but individual churches, hence the use of the word “church.”
Now let me ask you a question. You say you don’t see the church after chapter 3. But do you not see a problem with that? (From your viewpoint that they must be called “the church.”) Where is John? He is in heaven, right? So if the church is in heaven too, then where are they? They are conspicuous by their absence, for John mentions everything that he sees there, and there is no church – from your point of view. I see them in the martyrs, who by the way in the fifth seal are doing what? They are asking God when is He going to start avenging them. In other words, they are asking Him when is He going to start pouring out His wrath. His answer is that He is not going to start until all the martyrs that are to be killed, have been killed. So clearly God’s wrath has not yet begun by the fifth seal.
You next asked why are we to be on watch for Christ’s return. I don’t know how thoroughly you have studied the events that occur during that second half of Daniel’s 70th week, but if you are trying to avoid being captured during the tribulation, and are one of the few who manage to survive it and have to live through what follows up until the rapture, do you really think you are going to be carrying a calendar around with you? You will lose track of time and the only thing that will keep you going is to realize that at some point the Lord will be return. Do you really think you will not be looking forward to it after enduring all these things? You will look for it all the more. As for knowing the day or hour, remember it is DAY and HOUR, not year, month, etc. You will know the season and the year, and approximate date, but the world will be altered, thrown into a new orbit according to the O.T.,, which will not be a 365 day year, (I expect it will return to a 360 day one), so even if you realize Christ will return on or about the Fall Feasts, you won’t know exactly when they will occur, even if you had access to a Jewish calendar, which you most likely won’t. You can try counting the days ,from the abomination, but I have a feeling that under the circumstances, you’ll lose count if you do survive that long. You need to have a reality check about what you would suffer and how things will really be, not think of it as sitting in your home, keeping track on the calendar on the wall.
Jesus disciples had no reason not to think it could occur in their lifetime, (not imminent for there were events that had to occur) for remember, the temple (which is a crucial part of the events) was still standing. Why should they think otherwise? Nothing Christ said indicated that 2000 years would pass. We only know that because we are here 2000 years later. He gave them signs. They had no reason to believe that these signs could not occur in their lifetime.
When the tribulation is cut short, so will the persecution by the antichrist. It no doubt will be cut short due to the events found in the sixth seals and trumpets, for those things will be keeping people busy just trying to survive themselves. Those Christians left will have to live in a survival mode, which means that they will probably have to be out in the fields trying to grow food and work at whatever they can to live and eat. Not every non-believer will be against them, so there being two people in the field working side by side when Christ returns is not far-fetched. In fact the events going on would force most people to probably have to go into survival mode, considering what the sixth seal is going to start.
In regards to the sheep and goat judgment, Wayne explained. There will be Christians who do survive the tribulation due to the help of non-believers who did not take the mark. Many people who are not Christians are against the one world government and will not take the mark. I know that people get the idea that the beast will have control over every inch of the earth, but that is not exactly true. There are places that escape his jurisdiction and there are those who will survive. That is the reason God cuts the tribulation short, just for that purpose of people surviving. The sheep/goat judgment is not for entry into heaven or New Jerusalem, it is for entry into the millennium on earth. These people will still have to accept Christ at some point, or find themselves still judged at the White Throne Judgment. They are given a reprieve to enter into the millennium for two reasons. 1) They did not take the mark, so they do not have an immediate death sentence, and 2) they helped Christians which Christ considers an act worthy of a second chance in the millennium to accept Him as their Savior.
And I don’t understand your comment, “Are you telling me there is a way for a non-believer to receive salvation? Seriously?” Uh, yeah, it happens every day now when a non-believer asks Jesus into their hearts. You are confusing entering into New Jerusalem as a resurrected Christian who reigns with Christ with a temporary reprieve from judgment to live in the millennium in the present body and have the chance to accept Christ. These are two very different lifestyles. One is eternal life. The other is just a continuation of this life. This is when the Jews will accept Christ also. Somebody has to re-populate the earth, after all.
I think you need to review 2 Thess. 2:11-12 “And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” We are told that when the abomination occurs, God will send a strong delusion that those who had not believed the truth, but took pleasure in unrighteousness will NOT believe, for they will believe the lie. This whole idea of 144,000 evangelists is not Scriptural. The only reason people have put that theory forth is because they don’t want to accept that there is no pre-trib rapture and have to explain away all the Christians on the sea of glass, because they don’t want to accept that it is them. The 144,000 are evangelists. Nowhere is there any Scripture that teaches that millions will come to the Lord, The Scriptures as given above teach the exact opposite. God will NOT LET them believe. As I said, you need to forget what you have been taught and start from scratch and see what is actually written, not how it has been misinterpreted.
Connie, Thank you for taking the time to reply.
No, I do not merely want to believe in a pre-trib rapture because I have “itching ears” and want to be comforted. I want the truth, and I’m prepared to believe whatever that truth is. The problem with the Rapture question is those who believe in a Pre-Trib, Mid-Trib and Post-Trib can all point to verses and passages in scripture to support their positions. I’ve seen and studied it all over and over again, and the truth is still not clear to me, as are much of the events of Revelation.
But perhaps it wasn’t meant to be clear? Perhaps Jesus left it a mystery so that no one would become lax in living a Godly life and serving him? It seems that we cannot know for certain some things until we get closer and closer to when those events will occur and then it will all start to make sense.
I also don’t see why there cannot be two raptures, one for the believers here now before the tribulation and one for those who become saved and survive during and after the tribulation. Remember that the word rapture itself isn’t even mentioned in scripture, only the concept of one, and no where does it state that such a thing can only happen once. Jesus does not have to come twice in order to rapture anyone, he could rapture anyone he chooses without having to physically cone down to the Earth. Also, it seems odd that he would bother to rapture up everyone at the same time during his second coming only to bring them all right back down again to Earth with him. What’s the point?
I will read further on the “Sheep and Goats” judgment. This is an area where I need better understanding.
Hi Chris, I’m hoping this is still legible when it prints. As we keep hitting the reply button it seems to keep getting narrower and narrower. I apologize for saying that you want to believe in the pre-trib, but it really sounded as if you are hoping for that result in your search. Can’t say I blame you. I wish it were true too, but it’s not. Most pre-tribs will defend that belief in the face of any argument no matter how good that argument is. If you have an open mind, then maybe you can be shown the truth that a pre-trib rapture simply is not there in Scripture.
I guess it is clear to me at this point where the rapture occurs, because I’ve been studying it for about 48 years, since I was a freshman in high school when our church got into it heavy duty. Then when the church moved on to other things, my parents continued to be into it and our home library was filled with books and tapes on the subject. All of it pre-trib of course. But as I started studying on my own, I came across more and more Scriptures that did not agree with a pre-trib. In fact just the opposite. When I would bring them up, my various pastors over the years (I moved around a lot) would just dismiss or ignore them and tell me that they didn’t matter and wouldn’t even try to reconcile them. That disturbed me, because I felt they should be reconciled, because God only has one truth. It became my mission to reconcile all the verses so that they made sense. It took God years to lead me to the truth, as He had to break down all the preconceived theories I had been taught that were not really Scriptural and slowly take away the blinders that had kept me from seeing the truth. I had to go through several rapture theories to get there. And in the end, I felt like an idiot, because the truth is so clear and obvious when you simply take every word at face value (except where God clearly states they are symbolic visions and then He usually tells you what the symbols mean) that it’s like the saying, “If it were a snake, it would have bit you.” It is not mystery, it is a revelation (hence the name of the book) and is really clear as a bell to me now, but Satan doesn’t want people to know the truth, so he will erect as many blinders as he can over your eyes.
You say you don’t see why there can’t be two harpazos (what has been coined “the rapture”). But why should there be? Of what necessity? What possible reason can you give for there being two? Nowhere are two indicated. You can’t make a theory from silence. Christ said He was coming back once and would gather the elect when He did. Do you believe Him? Or is He lying? Take Him at His word. The first lie that Satan propagated was (paraphrased), “Did God REALLY say THAT?” when he asked Eve about the tree and God’s rule. He’s still using that same technique to blind people to the truth. Did God REALLY say that? Yes, in fact He did. Christ said, I’m coming back HERE (He might as well have drawn an arrow) to gather the elect (that’s us by the way), and put a big huge fireworks display to herald its approach, and even told us numerous places the O.T. that this sign would precede God’s wrath, yet people still aren’t getting it. Paul made it unmistakably clear when he said that it would be at the LAST trump. He couldn’t have pinpointed it more clearly had he also put up a blinking neon sign. Yet people say, “Well, the last trump isn’t REALLY the last trump.” What? Do you realize how ridiculous that statement sounds? Last means last. And when you look at the last trumpet in Revelation, there it is, plain as day when you realize what it is saying. First the two witnesses are “resurrected.” Hmmm, there’s a hint. The Bema Seat judgment is at the seventh and last trumpet when the dead saints and prophets are going to be judged and rewarded. Heaven announces that God’s wrath is going to begin THEN, not before then, (people crying that God’s wrath has come in the sixth seal is not the same as heaven announcing it. They cry that every time there is an act of God which is of unprecedented proportions, and they also know these signs were to precede it, so….) which is the excuse given for a rapture having to occur at the beginning of the 70th week. The rapture only need occur before the vials (God’s wrath), which is the only thing we are promised that we are not appointed to suffer. Nowhere does God ever say we can’t suffer at the hands of tyrants, no matter how powerful they are. The most they can do is kill us, right? Is the antichrist any different in that respect? No. So why should we expect to escape martyrdom when so many around the world are not? You do realize that the only people suffering during the tribulation are Christians and those who won’t take the mark. The woman (Israel) is protected in the wilderness. And those who follow Satan will be just fine for the moment. How is that God’s wrath? It isn’t. It is tribulation for the purging of the saints. They need to make their robes white, remember? If you don’t think so, then check out the letters to the seven churches again. Five of them have made Christ very angry and sad. They need purging, and in fact one is threatened with the great tribulation by name.
You will again find the rapture in Chapter 14 of Revelation, just as Christ described it in Matthew 24, picking up where chapter 11 left off (12-13 are interlude chapters) at the last trumpet, just before God’s wrath is poured out in the last verses in that chapter (14). And lo and behold, what do we find in Chapter 15? A group of people who have suddenly appeared on the sea of glass. Could it be – the people from the rapture? Those in particular who are not resurrected, but actually raptured alive? They are special. Remember those on the sea of glass the previous time came out of the tribulation, but by death. They washed their robes (because they were dirty from falling away) and made them white by the blood of the Lamb. They were overcomers who loved not their lives to death (Rev. 12:11) And there was a great number of them, leaving few to survive to the rapture. (If you have trouble believing that first group are martyrs and not resurrected, remember they are the group that the martyrs of the fifth seal (who can also be seen) are told to await before God will start avenging them.) This group in Ch. 15 have had victory over the beast. They got victory over him by not taking the mark, but not dying. They made it to the rapture and they are special.
And for good measure we are told that the mystery of God is finished (the mystery is the church) in Chapter 10 after the sixth trumpet, which means the Church is still here until the seventh or last trump, because that is when the mystery or Church is finished. You can’t resurrect and rapture the Church until it is complete. And as the rapture occurs at the seventh trumpet but the vials are yet to be poured out, there is a time gap before they come back down at Armaggedon during which the Bema Seat occurs. It isn’t a U-turn.
You said that all of the different theories can point to verses to proof their beliefs. Yes, if they ignore a great many other verses. I refused to ignore ANY of them to come to my understanding. I took the Scriptures as literally as possible, and in so doing found that they reconciled. I didn’t have to ignore any of the verses, or twist their meaning, or spiritualize them. Isn’t that how truth should be?
Hi Connie,
I am extremely new to this and would probably be called a non-believer until now (even though Christian from birth), but I have found truth through extensive research in other areas of life, which led me to your and Wayne’s work, for which I am truly grateful.
I have decided to leave my material, comfortable life behind and move to living in the wilderness/off-grid to purge myself from ego and work on bringing Christ to my heart, help others. I am researching places that would be slightly more “safe” and since you mentioned there would be places escaping Antichrist’s jurisdiction, could you elaborate on this in greater detail or provide a link to your/someone’s blog with more information? Is Amazon Rainforest or an island in South Pacific a good example of such a place? Are there ways of finding Christian communities set up in distant locations with similar goals?
Again, very grateful for any insight and your work in general.
Here is an article I have on the topic: https://www.prophecyproof.org/safe-places-hide-antichrist/
Thanks Wayne. I have read that article – it was really informative and actually got me thinking more about it.
I just wonder if someone has done extensive research on more specific locations not explicitly mentioned in the Bible. Judea mountains may be a difficult location to establish a life in prior to troubles and would appreciate any more information.
I’m not aware of other research concerning places to hide. I agree with Connie that it’s more important that you’re living the right way than it is to find a place to hide.
Actually Simon, it is far less about where you are than whether or not you are living in such a way that you qualify as a Philadelphian to be kept from that hour of temptation (the great tribulation) that comes on the whole earth. No matter how safe the location, if you do not spiritually qualify, you won’t make it. And you can live in a place of danger and be kept safe. The promise of safety to Christians is about how they are living and whether they are worthy to escape it. That is why Christ tells Christians to pray that they are worthy to escape. The promise to Israel is that they will be put in a safe location, since they do not have the relationship with Christ to protect them. You have to go with the promise that is given to you.
Another few typos. It is Holy Spirit, not Holly, and the 144,000 are NOT evangelists. Nowhere is there any verses to back that up.
It’s hard to go back and forth productively like this because our viewpoints are different. I’m also currently writing a book, so I can’t devote much more time to going back and forth like this. Therefore, I intend this to be my last reply on this subject matter. Really quickly…
The rewarding of believers is a judgment known as the Bema Seat Judgment. It’s different than the Sheep and Goat Judgment, which is a judgment concerning entry into the Millennium. Many people see these judgments as different events.
Non-believers without the Mark of the Beast probably won’t be living in easy-to-find places. They may be doing things in secluded, off-the-grid communities in remote areas.
It takes a lot of verses to prove or disprove a particular Rapture position. However, some people’s viewpoints have changed just by studying Matthew 24 closely alongside Revelation 6.
Whoops, meant to type Hi Chris, not Hi Christ. Typing too fast I guess.
Chris,
If you believe in a single Resurrection of the Dead in Christ and Rapture of the Alive in Christ Event, and you believe they are the Bride of Christ, then checkout Rev. 21 and Rev. 16. Find out, after a thousand years had passed, which Angel was given the task to show to John who the Bride is. Checkout also which Angel was also given the task to show to John who the Great Prostitute (opposite of the Bride) is in Rev. 16 and Rev. 17, so to establish the logic here.
With regards to the church not being mentioned anymore in the great tribulation, remember that Christ is going to separate the wheat from the tares. Christ will find out who belongs to Him and who is not in the Great Tribulation.
There are 7 churches that Jesus Christ’s warned. The Churches in Smyrna and Philadelphia were the ones commended and given promised of salvation and protection during the great tribulation. The Churches in Ephesus, Pergamos, Thyatira, Sardis, and Laodicea were commanded to heed the warning, to repent, and to even go out of these churches so as not to fall away during the great tribulation.
So you see, there will be churches that will be deceived and will not be part anymore of the True Body of Christ, those who follow Jesus Christ, which are the saints. Remember that there is also a thing called the church of satan. So I guess the word church is not worth mentioning anymore in the great tribulation, so to clearly distinguish.
I hope the above will suffice. Keep an open mind and a heart that is right with the things of God.
I think you need to recheck the church on Smyrna. They are not given the promise of protection. They are told they will be killed.
Yes Connie, you are right. They were not given the promise of protection, only salvation. I had presumptuously attributed it to both churches. Thanks.
eaglet wrote – “The Churches in Smyrna and Philadelphia were the ones commended and given promised of salvation and protection during the great tribulation.”
Where are you getting this? There is no such promise these churches will be protected from the great tribulation. The great tribulation hasn’t happened yet and these churches have long since ceased to exist! This was a general warning to all churches for all times.
The Spirit and Character of the Seven Churches of the past is very present in our churches today. Jesus did not just warned those in John’s time but also for the future churches.
Those people who has the character and spirit of the Church in Smyrna will be martyred during the Great Tribulation and will be part of the Dead in Christ who will wait for the Lord Jesus Christ to resurrect them.
Those people who has the character and spirit of the Church in Philadelphia will be protected during the Great Tribulation, like what God did to most of His anointed people during the Old Testament times. And when the Lord Jesus Christ comes they will be raptured together with those Dead in Christ who will be resurrected.
Those people who were before has the spirit and character of the Churches in Pergamos, Thyathira, Sardis, Ephesus, and Laodicea, and heed the warning of Jesus Christ, repented, and got out of these churches, will either be protected or killed during the great tribulation, but more preciously will be resurrected or raptured and will be with the Lord Jesus Christ forever.
Sadly, most christians today think of death as dreadful, especially if the manner of death is by chopping off your head. Scientifically, chopping off one’s head is not painful, only the thought of it is dreadful.
Do you know the coptic christians that were beheaded by ISIS were drugged so that ISIS can manage to control their violent resistance. So you see God has a way of making it easy for His children to go through death. Even they were drugged, they still manage to proclaim their faith audibly before they were put to sleep spiritually.
Faith without works is dead. If a christian think that by not denying Jesus Christ is works, then he is really dead : ) but if it is by faith then he will only sleep : )
Nero is deeply confounded seeing the christians still smiling and singing praises to God while they were being ravaged by the lions and torched and hanged as lamps in the streets of Rome.
Psalm 116:15
Precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of his saints.
This is the heart of God for those who are faithful and who overcomes through tribulation until the end.
I am a pre-trib rapture believer. As far as seeing the antichrist, I believe we are witnessing him right now before the rapture. The antichrist is coming from the empire that destroyed the temple (Dan. 9/27)…the Roman Empire. If you know anything about the history of the Roman Empire and the Roman Catholic Church, you will understand that the Emporer of Rome was transferred to the Pope of the RCC. The antichrist will be the Pope that is living at the time of the rapture. I believe that rapture is very soon. Is Pope Francis the future antichrist? I believe he is. Just listen to everything he says. He will really be charismatic when satan indwells him with his full power. Not really a stretch if you know history. I would recommend the late Dave Hunt’s articles on Mystery Babylon I and II.
Thanks Dear for yr contribution on this most debatable issue.
according to you ,when rapture is taking place?
I say this because church is not going to share Israel punishment.
when works are tested, when is wedding of the lamb since Jesus will come to reign millennium after 7 years tribulation.
most people think were going to see the passover again from other people posting thing s wrong way .and they are getting blessed candles for this time . wrong way again . i will print your site and words and give it to them thanks.
TRUTH! <3
Thanks, I seek to provide the truth even if it’s something people don’t like hearing.
Wayne I would like to thank you for this site. Iam in Australia its 13 Oct 2016. Iam at Peace in my own Soul however Iam restless in my Spirit for what is coming in relation to family and friends etc hence the sharing. I hope it is OK I have shared your link to my FB page https://www.facebook.com/Stephen.K.Fulford
and have also copied and pasted directly from your site the writings of Connie.
If this is not OK please contact me and I will take down if so desired.
Once again thankyou for making this site available. Looking forward to the return of Jesus the One True Christ when ever that may be.
Matthew 24:36New King James Version (NKJV)
No One Knows the Day or Hour
36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven,[a] but My Father only.
It’s up to Connie whether it’s okay for you to share her comment. She’s very smart and has her own sites where she shares her viewpoints on various topics relating to the Bible and Bible prophecy:
http://endtimesstudies.blogspot.com/
http://bibleconundrumsandcontroversy.blogspot.com/
Stephen, Your are perfectly welcome to share anything I write here or on my blogs.
The Church/Body of Christ will be busy BUT,PRAISE GOD the Church/Body of Christ will be busy elsewhere when the Time of Jacob’s Trouble hits earth. What do I mean? The Judgement Seat of Christ(Romans 14:10, 1 Cor.3:9-15, 2 Cor.5:10), The Marriage Supper of the Lamb(Revelation 19:7-8) and The Battle of Armageddon will keep the Church/Body of Christ very occupied while the Time of Jacob’s Trouble breaks loose on earth. Who will be prepared and ready to go through the Time of Jacob’s Trouble? NOBODY! “Howl ye:for the day of the LORD is at hand;it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.Therefore shall all hands be faint,and every man’s heart shall melt:And they shall be afraid:pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them:they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth:they shall be amazed one at another;their faces shall be as flames.”(Isaiah 13:6-8) If you have a wife,house and kids,it gets worse. “Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes:their houses shall be spoiled,and their wives ravished.”(Isaiah 13:16) How about this verse? “And in those days shall men seek death and shall not find it:and shall desire to die,and death shall flee from them.”(Revelation 9:6) Wayne, I find it amazing that all of the post-trib advocates hang on to this,”The purpose of the Time of Jacob’s Trouble is to purify the faith of the believers when I can not find 1 verse to support that claim. No one will be ready. Not to go through this.
You are confusing the Day of the Lord (God’s wrath) with tribulation. All pre-tribbers do that. Tribulation is to chastise and punish to bring people back to righteousness. We are to expect tribulation in this life. Who is suffering during the Great tribulation? The unsaved? No. Christians are suffering. Look at the 5th seal. It is strictly about Christians being martyred. How is that God’s wrath? They are asking God when He is going to get vengeance for them. If His wrath had started they wouldn’t have to ask that. The people who take the mark will go on living and buying and selling and life will go on as usual during the tribulation for them. How is that God’s wrath? Satan will be going after Christians and whatever Jews he can get access to. God’s wrath is not punishment or chastisement. It is simply destruction. Tribulation is Satan’s wrath (Rev. 12:12) allowed by God for our purging. Notice that time is given for people to continue to repent even during the trumpet judgments after the great tribulation is cut short. There is no repentance available during God’s wrath. It’s over by then. It isn’t until the vials that God’s wrath is announced in heaven as having come, and there is no more time for repentance. There is just vengeance. You speak of the judgment seat, but that doesn’t occur until the last trump. Read Rev. 11:15-18. That is when it occurs. Right before God’s wrath is poured out. You want a verse for the purpose to be to purify? Daniel 11:35 “And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end:” What you have to be ready for is to die for the Lord.
You assume that no one is saved during the tribulation Connie. 144,000 witnessed and NO ONE is saved? It IS Jacobs Wrath….not the (true) Churches as I read it!
I think many Post-Trib advocates would agree that Christians will not endure the difficulties of the Day of the Lord. However, they would argue that the Day of the Lord begins much later than most Pre-Trib advocates argue.
AGREED! SO FAR BEFORE ITS CALLED PRE-TRIB! Woops, sorry. I wasn’t yelling. I didn’t realize I was on Caps and it’s bedtime. You get my point Wayne.
Good Word brother! Love you Jerry. See you in the clouds….or shortly thereafter!
I have been studying prophecy since I was in middle school and and am now 31. There are a few different views on when the rapture will occur and I have been open to all sides in that past, but the more I study I am brought back to these scriptures. I would like to present them here.
Matthew 24:36-41 36But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
The next time Jesus intervenes into the affairs of men directly people will be eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage. The only way this can be taken literally is with a pre-tribulation rapture view. Everything will seem to be going on as normal. This can’t be said for a mid-trib or post-trib rapture date.
Luke 21:34-36 34And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
Jesus gives an overview of the end times in Luke 21 and then says pray that you are accounted worthy to escape ALL these things and to stand before him.
1 Thessalonians 5: 1-3 1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
PEACE AND SAFETY! Will anyone be saying this during or at the end of the tribulation? No way! It will be the worst time humanity has ever seen. From what I’m gleaning from these verses is that soon this world will be saying peace and safety, as there may be a temporary break in the worldwide violence and then the rapture happens which would cause the sudden destruction and those that weren’t prepared to meet Jesus will not escape. Why would it be worded that the snare would come upon the Christians who are ready and watching? We are children of the light! We won’t be snared because we won’t be here.
Caleb, are you aware that the first verse you quoted in Matthew 24 speaks directly to the verses which precede it? When it says nobody knows the day or the hour, ask yourself the day or the hour of what does it refer back to? It refers back to the previous verses which speak of the Second Coming of the Lord. Nobody knows the day or the hour of the Second Coming of the Lord. Unless you believe that the rapture occurs at the Second Coming of the Lord (which I do, as it occurs at the last trump) you cannot apply this verse to a rapture scenario. Please do not take verses out of context to try to make a proof for this belief.
Praying to escape something does not indicate that you are taken out of the world. What if I were a Jew in Germany in WWII and I prayed to escape the holocaust? Does that necessitate being raptured? No. It means I am praying for protection to escape the torture and horror of it. You are imposing an assumed theory upon a verse where the verse does not necessitate that interpretation. In other words, the verse does not teach that unless you are trying to make it mean that. By my interpretation, I am praying that I will escape it, because God will protect me through it. This is what is taught in Scripture, that we not be removed from the world, but protected within it. When it says in Revelation 3:10 : I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation” the words “keep from” are the same words that Christ spoke in John 17:15 “I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.” Jesus did not ask that we be taken out of the world but that we be kept safe while within the world. Same exact words. And note that it does not say that we will be kept from wrath (which we are) but in Rev. it says we are kept from “temptation”. We are never removed from the world to avoid “temptation” or trials. There is a distinct difference between wrath and temptation or trials and tribulation.
As of 1 Thessalonians, why does every pre-tribber stop at verse 3? Have you not read verse 4? It says, “But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.” We are not to be overtaken, because we should know when it is coming. Christ gave us all the signs to watch. And as to why they say peace and safety, or are making merry and giving in marriage, let us see what occurs just before Christ returns. Revelation 11 tells us just before the last trump (the third woe) is blown, the 2 witnesses are killed. What happens in the world? Verse 10 ” And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.” The world believes the two witnesses are responsible for everything that has been occurring in the trumpet judgments. So they now think they will have peace and safety, because these two are dead. It is over. They are victorious (so they think) and life can go on as it had been. But they are about to be caught totally by surprise. Look what happens when the last trump is blown. Rev. 11:15-18 “And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. (Christ now has gotten the world back from Satan, and will rule as its King. The beast’s reign is over) [18] And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, (God’s wrath has now come. NOW, not back during the time of tribulation.) and the time of the dead, (people are still dead at this point, not resurrected, their time has now come for what?) that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; (that they should be judged and rewarded – resurrection and Bema Seat) and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. (God’s wrath which immediately follows the resurrection/rapture) ”
This is followed in verse 19 with ” And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.” The temple is now for the first time opened. Where do we pick up this narrative again by seeing where the temple is opened? In Chapter 15:5-8 “And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened: And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles. And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever. And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled” We see that the temple is open to allow seven angels to come out with God’s wrath. The temple is only opened once, so let’s look to see what happens immediately preceding this from this other point of view.
Rev. 14:14-20, 15:1-4 “And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.” (This certainly sounds like the rapture to me according to the description Paul gave, doesn’t it? And it also matches Christ’s account in Matt. 24:30-31 “And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” Of which is also said vs 36 “But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.”) [17] And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress OF THE WRATH OF GOD. (Here is where the wrath of God comes) And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs. And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God. (This is the wrath of God. This is the only thing announced by heaven in Scripture as being the wrath of God. ) And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints. Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.” This group is the group who is raptured at the Second Coming/last trump. They have had VICTORY over the beast and the mark, for God kept them through all of this. They qualifed as Philadelphians because they kept the word of God’s patience and His commandments. The group on the sea of glass earlier in chap. 7 were the ones the martyrs in the fifth seal were told to wait for that had to be killed as they were. They are overcomers. How is that? Rev. 12:11 “And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.” They overcame him by their deaths.
Pre-trib might be a comforting theory, but there is nothing in Scripture that indicates it exists. It is an assumption for which verses are pulled out of context, or twisted to try to validate it. That is not how to interpret Scripture. We should not come with preconceived ideas and try to force Scripture to fit them. We read Scripture and take the truth from it. All Scriptures lead to the conclusion that the Church will be here through the tribulation. Or rather that it will be mostly killed during the tribulation. It is the Church that Satan comes after (Rev. 12:17) Think about it. Who is suffering during the tribulation? Those who take the mark? Of course not. The tribulation (and the tribulation is not the entire seven years. Scripture does not define it that way) is not God’s wrath, for the only ones suffering from the antichrist are God’s people, not the antichrist’s people. God’s people are the victims of the holocaust which is worse than any other in the history of the world. That is why there is a numberless group on the sea of glass in chapt 7. If Christians are not appointed to wrath, and the tribulation were God’s wrath, then those martyrs in the fifth seal and those on the sea of glass could not exist, for there should be NO Bride of Christ on earth during God’s wrath, but clearly there are during the tribulation. So either God is a liar, or a pre-trib rapture does not exist.
I appreciate your reply. I thought that the tribulation lasts for 7 years because there is one week of years left from Daniel’s 70 weeks of years prophecy. I am still trying to navigate through all of this.
Hi Caleb, it is a hard subject to study. I was introduced to it all in church when I was in high school and my parents were very into it, so I had a vast library to study and I learned all the various teachings on it. I’m now about to turn 62, so you can see how many years it has taken me to figure things out and some of them are still a mystery. I started as pre-trib too. I think the problem started with wrong definitions and went from there. Without the right definitions, you get led down the wrong paths. First, the seven year period is only ever referred to as the 70th week of Daniel. That is the only appellation that should be applied to it. We then have the term Day of the Lord which is God’s wrath. When you study all the Scriptures related to this Day, you find that there is a clear description of signs that will precede it or herald its soon approach. Those signs are the sun going dark, the moon turning dark or to blood, the stars falling, great earthquakes and men running for fear. Remember these signs precede the Day of the Lord or God’s wrath, so God’s wrath cannot start before these signs occur.
Next we have the term “great tribulation.” One of the big mistakes is assuming that wrath and tribulation are the same thing. They are not. They are different Greek as well as English words, and have entirely different meant meanings. “Thumos” or “orge” are God’s anger and vengeance. “Thlipsis” on the other hand is tribulation, trials, and persecution and always refers to persecution against God’s people. Persecution comes from Satan and his followers, not God. Trials are allowed by God for our spiritual growth.
There are only two places in Scripture this term “great tribulation” occurs. One is in Matthew 24, and the other is in Revelation 2:22 where the church of Thyatira is told they will be thrown into great tribulation for their sins. In Matthew Christ tells us that the great tribulation (note there is no “tribulation” only a “great tribulation” will begin at the abomination of desolation, which we know from Daniel 9:27 is from the mid-point of the 70th week, until the signs which correspond to the Day of the Lord signs occur which corresponds to the signs in the sixth seal in Revelation. We are also told that the “great tribulation” is cut short. Cut short of what? We know that 70th week is seven years long, so that can’t be cut short. We know that the time of the beast is 3 1/2 years or 42 months so that can’t be cut short. We know that the witnesses prophesy for 1260 days so that can’t be cut short. We know the woman is hidden in the wilderness for 1260 days, so that can’t be cut short. We know that Jerusalem and the temple will be trodden underfoot for 42 months until the time of the Gentiles is done. So none of these things can be cut short. But when we go to Revelation and see that the signs that will herald the coming of the Day of the Lord are in the sixth seal, and there are six trumpets after that which end at the end of the seven years or 1260 day ministry of the prophets (third woe) we see that the great tribulation has to be cut short of the 3 1/2 years to allow for the trumpet judgments after the signs of the Lord, as they occur before the 3 1/2 years are over.
What is confusing to many people is that in Matthew it goes right from the Day of the Lord signs of the sun and moon to the return of the Lord and there is no description of what Revelation tells us comes in between. That is because all that information was not for the disciples at that time. They were familiar with the OT. Scriptures about the Day of the Lord, and they expected He would return when that Day arrived, for they understood that the Day of the Lord, God’s judgments and the setting up of the kingdom would all occur at the same time. So Christ told them the signs of the Day of the Lord would occur and said that THEN He would return and gather us up to Him. But that does not mean that there cannot be anything in between the signs and the THEN in the verse that follows in Matthew. If I were to say that when the school year was over (I was a teacher) that there was going to be a teacher’s seminar which I was going to attend, and THEN I was going on vacation to Hawaii, but told you nothing more, would you assume the seminar was one day long? What if it turns out it was a month long and there was a lot of stuff going on during that time, What if I didn’t fill in that information until a later time. Does that mean that what I tell you later does not fit, because you assumed the seminar was a one day occurrence? Do you see my point? The great tribulation is an unknown length of time. The wholesale slaughter of Christians and others who resist will be stopped, even though the beast will continue to be the world leader and will still kill people when he can, because people will be too busy dealing with the events of the sixth seal through the sixth trumpet to bother hunting down these resisters in the way they had been doing.
The phrase “time of Jacob’s trouble” if you look closely is associated with the Day of the Lord which means that while no doubt Jews till be killed during the tribulation, their real time of trouble will be surviving God’s wrath. God protects the woman (the chosen ones from Israel) in the wilderness during the great tribulation (Rev. 12) and the trumpets, as they comprise the 1260 days, but Israel will have to get through the Day of the Lord or God’s wrath, which we will have been removed from.
In Romans 11:25 we are told “For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.” Israel will not be saved until the fullness of the Gentiles has come, so the idea that tons of them will be saved during the tribulation is not true according to Scripture. In Luke 21:20-24 we read “And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. [21] Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. [22] For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. [23] But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
[24] And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.” Luke tells us that from the abomination of desolation (this passage corresponds to that in Matthew 24) Jerusalem will be trodden by the Gentiles until the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled. So how long is it that that will be? We find the answer to that in Revelation 11:2 “But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.” So these three verses when lined up tell us that Israel will not have its blindness lifted and be saved until the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled, or until the 42 months of the second half of the 70th week is done. In other words at the Second Coming of the Lord. And that corresponds to what we are told in Reve.ation 1:7 ” Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.” and Zechariah 12:10 “And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.” Israel finally realizes their mistake when the see Jesus return at the Second Coming.
The Church was a mystery that was revealed in the New Testament. The rapture was a mystery that was revealed. In Revelation 10: 7 after the six trumpets are past, we are told that when the last angel blows his trumpet (the last trump) the mystery of God (the Church ) will be finished. The last trumpet or seventh trumpet is sounded when the witnesses 1260 days (2nd half of the 70th week) are finished. So the fullness of the Gentiles, the Church being finished, all Israel saved, the Lord’s Coming, the rapture, God’s wrath beginning all occur at some day and hour after the 1260th day (unknown exactly which day or hour it will be after the 1260th, but can’t be more than a couple days). That accounts for the fact that Daniel is told there will be 1290 days from the abomination until it is all finished,(Dan. 12) for God’s wrath doesn’t begin until the 42 months of the 70th week are over. Jesus destroys the beast’s reign with His coming. The last 30 days (1290) during which the vials are poured out are still within a seven year period, so still fall within the 70th week, but not within the 42 months/1260 days.
Does this all make sense?
It seems too, but I am still trying to figure this out. Thank you for taking the time!
Keep studying. As long as you want the truth, God will get you there.
Hi Caleb, you might want to figure this out:
Rev. 21:9
9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb’s wife.
This happened at the end of the Millennium, the establishment of the New Heaven and New Earth.
Why is it that it was one of the angel which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues was the one chosen to show to John the Bride?
Why not one of the angel which had the seven trumpets, or an angel who witnessed the opening of the seals event, or Michael, or Gabriel, or any other angel in Heaven?
What is the significance of this particular and specific angel? what did he witnessed during his time when he poured out one of the vial judgement?
You might want to check this out in Rev. 16. Find out also which angel introduce to John the Great Whore/Prostitute, exactly the opposite of the Bride.
Show me also scriptures that literally, not figuratively shows there will be several batches of Brides that will be snatched before, during, and after the great tribulation
Have a blessed and Holy Spirit-filled study brother!
Hmmmmmm…..you make a solid case. 2 things about this I know.
1. It doesn’t matter if we are saved. WE WILL ALL be saved if we have trusted sin Christ. Tribulation be damned. We will all be together.
2. I may never stop studying this subject.
Just one question…..if Christ comes at the
end, how do you explain 2 Thessalonians 2? Once the tribulation begins, everyone will know the timeline. There could be no thief in the night. Sometimes we
Just need to read it and believe it. God’s plan is very simple. When we think we need to make things more complicated than what God inspired or said thru our Lord…….we cause chaos. satan loves it. I’ll go to heaven with any kind of “tribber”, “fibber”or “foe”. Makes no difference to me as we will ALL be changed and be like Him! That we can be sure of. Doesn’t mean we can’t talk through things and be good “Bereans” but the world knows us by how we LOVE each other because we are ALL from the Church of Christ and what kind of LOVE IS THIS? That we ALL should be called the SONS OF GOD?
WOW….Joint heirs other Christ!!!
Come on Man!!!!!! I love it!
Thank you Connie! All I can is God protected Noah, he didn’t take him out! The same with Lot and Rahab! So it will be as it was in the days of Noah!
Noah, Lot, Rahab were left behind and the wicked were all taken away, destroyed! So it will be again! The wicked go first! I don’t want to be raptured! I will endure be protected until Jesus returns!
Natasha, if you read all of what I wrote above in both comments, you will see that I didn’t say that the wicked go first. They don’t. We are raptured at the Second Coming of Christ, then the wicked are thrown into God’s wrath. And at that time those who have not taken the mark, but have not accepted Christ before His Coming will be left behind to be protected during God’s wrath, but there is a rapture and Christians that are still alive at His Coming (which will be few I think) do precede the throwing of the wicked into God’s wrath. That is the order given in Revelation 14. And there are things that God tells us are expected of us, if you want to be among those who endure to the end rather than get killed during the great tribulation. It isn’t just a matter of being a Christian. Only one group out of seven (in the seven churches) even meets the qualifications which will let them be kept during that time. The Christians that fall into the other six churches are not promised protection. Search out to see what is expected to meet those qualifications.
Connie
If you saying that the rapture doesnt happen until Jesus return s that doesn’t make sense because that is he will reign on earth therefore no one would go to heaven.
The saints who are raptured go to New Jerusalem, which is where they will live. If you look in Revelation, Jesus returns in Rev. 14:14, after the last trumpet has been sounded (in Rev. 11) where it says Jesus’ reign begins, the dead saints are rewarded, God’s wrath has come, and the mystery of God (the church and its fulfillment) is finished (Rev. 10:7 after the sixth trumpet). Then it says (Rev. 15 & 16) that God’s wrath (the vial or bowl judgments) is poured out. The saints have been resurrected/raptured at His return and are removed to New Jerusalem while Christ’s first act in His reign, God’s wrath, is initiated on earth. It is probable that New Jerusalem will be a satellite city as 1) it is far too large to sit on earth and 2) it says that the nations will walk in the light it provides from God’s shekinah glory shining out through the crystal city (Rev. 21:24). As to its size, it is 1500 miles long, wide, and tall. That is practically the size of the United States and then it would go 1500 miles out into space as well. It is just a bit larger than Pluto, which seems to make the probable scenario of a satellite city much more probable, for imagine that celestial body sitting on the earth. Not a probable scenario with this present earth. And for all the nations to walk in its light, it would seem that it would have to be outside of the earth so that the earth’s rotation or its orbit would allow for it to shine on all of the nations around the planet. It’s proximity to earth as a satellite city would make it easy for Christ to reign over earth, as well as for the saints who are supposed to be judges on earth do their job, as glorified bodies will be able to go back and forth with ease, just as angels do now. Note Christ’s ascension was an example of what the body will do. And it will keep the city safe from the people on earth who are not happy with Christ reigning as king.
Christ’s reign begins with cleansing the earth of its evil with God’s wrath, the vials, and then at Armageddon at the end of those vials, He will return with the saints (Rev. 19) after the Bema seat judgment (Rev. 11) having occurred at the last trumpet, as well as the marriage of the Lamb (Rev. 19). During His wrath, He will protect those who have not believed on Christ until they see Him whom they have pierced (Rev. 1:7, Zech. 12:8-12) and therefore have missed being raptured, but are now believers. They have not taken the mark, (for whatever reasons) and now as believers are the sheep in the sheep and goat judgment and will enter into the millennium in the mortal form we presently have, instead of having glorified bodies as the saints will then have. Does it make sense now?
People will still marry during the end times. Nothing indicates that Antichrist will put a stop to marriage. If you are a follower of Antichrist you are unlikely to be persecuted by the Antichrist. Antichrist’s followers can marry and have parties. Consider Revelation 11:10, which records people’s general reaction to the death of the Two Witnesses: “And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.” People on Earth at that time have the capacity to enjoy themselves.
YES FOR SURE WE DONT NEED TO BE LONG WINDED HERE THE FACT IS YOU MUST HAVE EYES TO SEE AND EARS TO HERE , Yes you will be here on earth when the devil comes if you are still alive for he comes at the 6 th. trump can you count 1.2.3.4.5.6. JESUS WILL COME AT THE 7 TH. TRUMP AND THERE IS NO SUCH WORD OF RAPTURE IN THE BIBLE , AND THE DEAD ARE ALREADY WITH THE LORD NOT LAYING IN A GRAVE SOME WERE ,AND NO YOU SURE DO NOT WANT TO BE THE FIRST ONE TAKEN OUT OF THE FILLED SO JUST KEEP READING ASK GOD; TO HELP YOU UNDERSTAND THE WORD HE WANTS YOU TO KNOW FOR HE HAS FOR TOLD YOU ALL THINGS AMEN..
WOW….very well said. It’s kinda funny Caleb. It’s almost as if our Lord said it himself but it wasn’t in red so Im clearly incorrect. Seriously, I love it. Sharper than a two-edged sword…..and so much more !
1 John 2:18 says “even now, there are many antichrists”. Throughout history, there have indeed been many antichrists including the Roman Catholic Church, Hitler, Rome, etc…. But there is one antichrist, spoken of in Revelation, which will arise after the rebirth of Israel, the fig tree. By this sign, we know that we are now truly in the end times and awaiting the return of the Christ who will lead us into the new millennium. The church will not be raptured from the planet or taken away as some would have you believe. We will, however, rise to meet him in the clouds. If you want to know what that means, you need to study it from a Jewish perspective. When Jesus entered Jerusalem before his death, that was a form or a shadow of a rapture and pointing to something very similar which will take place when Christ returns as KING OF KINGS and LORD OF LORDS. And when he does return, he will destroy the Dragon, the Beast and the False Prophet.
The antichrist is the papacy. Look up the movie on youtube called Leapord vision
The antichrist is a political and military man. Checkout the King of the North in Daniel 11, see if it fits the papacy.
My guess is, the Pope could be the False Prophet.
thanks for the recommendation. that movie is really good. watched it tonight for the first time. W
I am a spirit filled believer and i am not here to judge. I was raised in a church that did not believe in any rapture. I have changed my mind. While studying the word of God as a whole, there is a foreshadowing and a picture of the rapture or protection of God’s children from wrath all through the bible. You cannot look at a few scripture to base your belief on it. God saved lot and his family from his wrath. Just as wrath came they escaped. God saved the righteous just before the flood came.The catching away will happen at the moment judgement comes. In rev 3:10 It says (slightly paraphrased)’because you have kept my patience to endure, I will keep you from the hour of trial that shall come upon the whole earth to test those who dwell upon it.’ Matthew 24, says one will be taken the other left. He will come like a thief in the night. He will not be seen for we will meet him in the air. God said,’I will send a great deception and they will believe the lie’ Many will not believe Christians were raptured. They will say it is aliens (which will be fallen angels so dont fall for it) or some other event and many will believe this lie because they refuse to turn to God. They will be marrying going about daily business when he comes for the bride.This will be an unexpected moment not during or after the trib. Enoch and Elija were taken in a snatching away. The bride of Christ is foreshadowed all through out the bible. The story of Boaz and Ruth. The story of Ester and the King. The 5 virgins out of 10 who were ready with oil (holy spirit) in their lamps when the Groom came. I was not able to put all the bible together as a whole until i was filled with the Holy Spirit. I also had a hunger to be filled with his word and asked for his wisdom and truth of the word and not my own understanding. The Lord says ‘you have not because you ask not’ and ‘my people perish for a lack of knowledge’ Jesus is not going to beat up his bride before taking her home. All I ask of all of you, if you are not filled with the Holy Spirit or have any of the gifts he promises when filled with the His Spirit, ask, and ye shall receive. Then tell him to reveal his wisdom and truth and his word and not from your own understanding.If you ask you will receive. I am not here to argue with anyone. I am only testifying to my experience and my belief. May God guide all of you to His understanding of the word and reveal His truth in all matters. God Bless all of You!
Wrath and tribulation are not defined as the same thing in Scripture. This is the main problem with the idea of a pre-trib rapture. When you alter the definitions, it allows for misinterpretation.
You make the statement that so many do, that Jesus does not beat up His bride before taking her home. Now stop and think about that and how wrong that statement is. Would you care to explain that to all the martyred Christians over the ages, and all those in other countries who are suffering persecution and martyrdom today? They are battered, and bruised and all beaten up, are they not? Does that disqualify them in some way, or does God honor them for their faithful witness unto death? Check out the Smyrnans. He has no complaint against them, yet they die a martyrs death. We are told to expect tribulation. Christ said to take up our cross. He meant be willing to be crucified for our faith, not to put up with burdens. Where is it ever taught that Jesus does not want us to do this? That He wants us to have the easy way out? It is the Laodiceans who think that they are above it all. That seems to be a bad group in which to be, does it not?
You are taking Rev. 3:10 in a way that is not necessarily meant. First of all, it is only for those who have kept the Word of His patience, not everybody. And only those who do that in the Philadephian church – one church out of seven.That is not good odds. Have you kept the Word of God’s patience? Patience for what? Do you know of what patience He speaks? If you don’t, how can you keep it? And it says keeping them not from wrath, but from what will “try” or as you said, “test” the earth. There is a vast difference between testing our faith (such as God did with Abraham) or chastisement for the sake of correction(because God chastens whom He loves), and wrath dished out as vengeance and punishment upon unbelievers. Get those two things straightened out, and the truth will become more apparent.
I can definitely see a strong argument that Christians will be here for the tribulation.
I can also see plenty of evidence to suggest that we will not.
“For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.” 1 Thessalonians 5:9
“Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.” Revelations 3:10
Also, he rescued Lot from Sodom and Gamorrah’s judgement.
He rescued Noah from the flood.
I see the tribulation as God’s judgement on the earth before the final judgement dealing with the lake of fire. Why would He allow us to suffer judgment in such a way when it is clear he rescues those who trust in Him?
I think the conclusive argument is that we simply do not know. Whether we go before, during or after, the goal stays the same: Be obedient and faithful to the Lord in all things.
Ken, could you point out to me where in the Bible does it teach that tribulation is the same as God’s wrath? I find nothing that equates the two as being the same thing. We are told to expect tribulation, indeed it is practically a guarantee that we will have it.
I find it curious that the same people who call the tribulation “God’s wrath” and say that Christians are not appointed to wrath, then turn around and say there will be multitudes of people who become Christians during the tribulation. Well then, Christians are appointed to wrath if you take that position, for a Christian is a Christian, right? If Christians aren’t appointed to wrath, then NO Christian is appointed to wrath. If you understand that tribulation is not God’s wrath, that God’s wrath is the Day of the Lord, and the Day of the Lord doesn’t begin until after the sun goes dark, the moon turns to blood, the stars fall, etc., then you see that it doesn’t begin until after the tribulation is cut short, for that is when those signs heralding the Day of the Lord occur. And that is why there can be Christians in the tribulation. Noah and Lot were saved the same day God’s wrath began. If it begins after the tribulation, then there is no precedent for removing us years before the fact. God’s wrath is the judgment on the earth, but the tribulation is God’s judgment on His own house. 1 Peter 4:12-13, 17-19 “Beloved, think it not strange concerning the FIERY TRIAL (Great tribulation)which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ’s sufferings; that, WHEN HIS GLORY SHALL BE REVEALED,(Second Coming) ye may be glad also with exceeding joy. For the time is come that judgment (purifying fires of the tribulation) must begin at the house of God:(us) and if it FIRST begin at us,(telling us that we must suffer judgment before the world does) what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? ….. And if the righteous scarcely be saved,(the Church is in great apostasy and needs purging) where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.” The Scriptures do not teach that we won’t suffer. They teach that we will.
In what you haved written I see you don’t really know who the antichrist really is,first the name antichrist means,one who stands in the place of Christ,There is only one from the beginning who ever stood opposed to Christ and wanted to exalt himself above God,Have you ever read the book of Isaiah to what Satan has said of himself and against God? Isaiah 14:12-15, “How art thou fallen from hraven, O Lucifer,Son of the morning, how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nation”, verse 13 -” For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God, I will set also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sid3s of the north” Notice (stars) representing the sons of God,Note that Satan did this which caused a third of the stars (sons) also called the fallen stars (angels) to fall with him Revelation 12:4 “And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven,and did cast them to the earth,and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born” Notice (dragon) this being Satan,Revelation 12:9 “And the great dragon was cast out,that old serpent, called the Devil,and Satan,which deceiveth the whole world” Therefore the antichrist is Satan himself, Satan is also called the man of sin,the Son of perdition, or to say the Son of destruction. Let’s go back to Isaiah 14, Notice also here in verse 13 that Satan has also said that he will sit also upon the mount of the congregation in the sides of the north, the congregation being Israel and the mount being the mount of Olives to where the disciples look on as Christ was taken up to heaven,as it is written here in verse 13 this is where Satan will descend down upon after him and his angels are cast out of heaven to the earth.to deceive Israel in believing that he their Messiah that they haved been long in waiting for.Notice what Satan has to say here in Verse 14 -“I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High” You see here Satan is in the exalting himself above the most High God.Verse 15 -” Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit” Notice (pit) in Revelation 20:1-3, Verse 1-“And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in His hand,verse2-“And he laid hold on the dragon,that old serpent,which is the Devil,and Satan,and bound him a thousand years,verse3-“And cast him into the bottomless pit” As you can see the pit is called also the bottomless pit,do you know what the bottomless pit is,it’s the earth,when Satan and his angels are cast out of heaven as to where do you suppose they are cast out to? The earth.the bottomless pit? Did you also not know that Christ Jesus the Lord shorten the days of the tribulation to 5 months period,alot of people seem to think its 7 years or 31/2 years, the Lord shorten down to 5 months according to Revelation 9:5 -“And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months; and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man” Therefore Christ Jesus the Lord has shorten the days of the tribulation to 5 months.Remember back in Matthew 24:22-“And except those days should be shorten, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened” Therefore Christ Jesus did shorten the days of the tribulation to 5 month’s period.To show just how much Satan’s power of deceiving is to people here on earth is,the Lord Jesus shorten the days of the tribulation to 5 month’s, if the Lord Jesus had not shorten the days of the tribulation, no flesh should be saved.this how much over whelming power Satan would have to deceive the people here on earth into believing he is God that sitteth in the tempel of God showing himself that he is God.Notice that back in Isaiah 14:15 the word (hell) in Revelation 6:8 -“And I looked and behold a pale horse, and his name that sat on him was Death, and hell followed with him” The question here is? Who is this death,what is his name? In the book of Hebrews will tell us who exactly the name of death is and who he is.lets look at the last half of this verse of Hebrews 2:14 -“that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil” Therefore another name for Satan is Death. Therefore back in Revelation 6:8 this speaking of Death is Satan and hell followed with him. You know when Satan is finally cast into the lake of fire,hell will follow with Satan also into the lake of fire.
I too am a believer who was taught that the church would be ‘caught away’ in order to ‘escape’ any persecution from the tribulation, a pre-trib doctrine. For the past twelve years, I have changed my belief, as why would God chose to take his believers out of the world at the exact time where we would most be able to be used by Him to continue to give the gospel of salvation of Christ!? God has not here-to-fore taken other believers out of harms way in past decades, but has honored them by leaving them on the Earth, persecuted, forsaken, as in ALL of the accounts in Hebrews chapter 11, ‘of whom the world was not worthy’ as that is what the church is all about, being in the body of Christ and having the oneness we all have in the Christ through his Spirit. I would rather have my body to be burned, or beheaded for Christ’s sake, during the tribulation time rather than to live a ‘fluffy-bunny’ dream of going up into the clouds to meet Jesus BEFORE,the tribulation period. One pre-trib ‘rapture’ song puts it this way ‘no sickness, no dread, and no dying.’ If that is the only reason ‘they’ don’t want to be ‘left behind’ in order to not to have to suffer as a Christian, that is a very poor excuse to be a Christian indeed!
Yes, and here it is a few days AFTER the September 23/24th, 2015, date of many who ‘felt’ the ‘rapture’ was going to transpire on that date, and nobody is ‘gone’ up into heaven, (which I never thought it would happen on that date either). Perhaps, that in itself may cause some believers to ‘fall away from the truth?’ Only God knows. Maybe ‘that’ was their ‘Blessed Hope.’ which is now a shattered hope, and now what ‘date’ are they going to choose? Hmmmm? Bless you brother Wayne! ‘Blessed is he who will be found waiting and watching’ (for Jesus!). And yes, I too, have to sit under ministry which has it all backwards, but I hold my tongue. I just pray a lot! The Holy Spirit will guide you into all Truth, not just men. Amen!
Thank you for your words Teresa. It’s great that you have this attitude towards the issue of facing persecution because not many have this attitude. It’s good that you also exercise restraint because it is difficult holding back when you know that the preacher is wrong and that people are being put at risk by the wrong teaching.
Wayne Croley,you are right what you haved said, but did you know that people are not taught in the churches as to who will come first just before the tribulation, we know by what is in John 17:15 that people are not going to be taken out from the world, and in Matthew 24:29,30, that the Lord Christ Jesus is not coming until Immediately after the tribulation, people in the churches are being deceived of not knowing that Satan will come into the world just before the tribulation to deceive people into believing that he is God,when Satan does come what do you suppose he will say to those that are waiting to be raptured out,could it not be that Satan will say, I have come to rapture you all out.This being the hour of temptation that is spoken about in Revelation 3:10,You know also Teresa of California is right.there is no need to worry about the tribulation,You know it is written,that if God is for us,who can be against us. Greater is He that is within us,than he that is in the world. God has promise that He will never forsake us,if we will have faith in Him to deliver us out of tribulation, this does not mean God will take us out of tribulation, but will walk with us thru the tribulation, Remember the prophet Daniel in the lion dens and the Lord was there with him to shut the mouths of the lions this being Daniel tribulation, and how about the three Hebrews that were cast into the furnace of fire, and the Lord walk with them in the furnace of fire, this being their tribulation. So the Lord will walk with those that have faith in Him to deliver them in their tribulation.
Teresa in California, that is right,why would God the believers out,when they would do the most good here to help others,have you read John 17:15 -“I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from evil” this of John 17:15 is parallel to Revelation 3:10 -“Because thou hast kept the word of My patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth” Notice the word (hour) Notice in Mark 13:11 (hour) that during this hour the Lord’s elect shall be delivered up,Notice in Matthew 24:29,30 Verse 29 -“Immediately after the tribulation of those days” Verse 30 -” And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven ” Therefore as Christ Jesus hast said,Immediately after the tribulation He shall come, not before the tribulation or in the middle of the tribulation, but Immediately after the tribulation Your Lord doeth come.
I do appreciate all your research and hard work!
May I offer something for you to consider on the 2 Thessalonians passage….
Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 (NKJV)
The term “falling away” of the Bible translation above is improperly derived from the Greek noun apostasia.
The first seven English Bible translations of apostasia all most appropriately rendered the noun as either the “the departure” or “the departing”.
Wycliffe Bible (1384)
Tyndale Bible (1526)
Coverdale Bible (1539)
Cranmore Bible (1539)
Breeches Bible (1576)
Beza Bible (1583)
Geneva Bible (1608)
The King James Bible of 1611 was the first to actually change the above correct translations from “departure” to “falling away”. To this day, no good reason has ever been given.
Now let us look at the passage with the departing in it….
Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the departing comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
2 Thessalonians 2:1-4
Makes quite a bit difference – does it not?
The reason they could put falling away, is because the kind of departing that apostasia is, is a departing from truth, not from a physical place. We get our word apostasy from apostasia, and apostasy holds the same meaning, a departure from truth. Possibly that is why they put falling away instead, to make sure people understood it was a departure from a belief, not a departure as in leaving somewhere. That would have been a different Greek word, had that kind of departure been meant. And yes, the right understanding does make a big difference.
We are almost there.
Iran will get the nuclear bomb.
http://dreamingofmoshiach.blogspot.no/2008/01/president-bushpresident-gog.html
and the BEAST will return to power.
Israels best friend will deceive them.
“For the lips of a strange woman drop as an honeycomb, and her mouth is smoother than oil”
Israel will make this covenant with the woman IN REV 18.
“But her end is bitter as wormwood, sharp as a twoedged sword.
Her feet go down to death; her steps take hold on hell.”
Antichrist is called “death and hell” i Habakkuk and Revelation
“A naughty person, a wicked man, walketh with a froward mouth.
To keep thee from the evil woman, from the FLATTERY of the tongue of a strange woman.
That they may keep thee from the strange woman, from the stranger which flattereth with her words.
“….(3) And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed:….”
Have you ever asked yourself why the Ottoman empire is never mentioned by Christians?
I would like to ask you why the Ottoman empire is not mentioned by Christians?
Another great article Wayne which is very biblical as usual.
Without a doubt, if God spares our life from early death through daily circumstances we will see the Antichrist rise to power. This was first mentioned by our Lord when questioned by his disciples and confirmed by Paul as you mentioned above in you article.
The important thing to note hear is that as you say the tribulation starts around mid-point of the last seven years and we know that Jesus returns just after this time when the Wrath of God will begin.
When the scripture you mentioned above Daniel 7:24-25 speaks about the saints being given into his hand for 42 months this can only mean the two witnesses and those saved by their preaching as the rapture would have already occurred by this time.
This is confirmed by verse 6 of Rev 13: And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and THEM THAT DWELL IN HEAVEN.
This shows that the resurrected and Raptured saints are now in heaven. Rev 7 verse 9 to 17
Excellent article. This is a great book which expounds on these thoughts:
http://www.alankurschner.com/antichrist-before-the-day-of-the-lord/
I believe that Rev. 12 points to a place of protection “in the wilderness.” Likewise that those who have learned the lesson of carring for others “will be spared the hour of temptation” (philadelphia = brotherly love). So as with the Exodus, only a small portion will enter into “heaven on earth” in the tribulations. We could point to Petra, but I mean a higher dimensional situation, literally experiencing the heavens “through the veil.” Not some distant location, but the actual fulfillment of “the kingdom of heaven is near.” Comparable situations as with Elijah and the ravens, etc. As with Rev. 11, I’m not saying we won’t be killed, just that as with Christ’s resurrection – that’s not the end of the story. The Two Witnesses first have their appointments to keep – before the futility of murdering them, Christ’s own, is demonstrated. There is no reason to be terrified of the antichrist or other enemies of God.
The odd thing is that it might be somewhat assuring seeing the Antichrist’s rise to power and his unveiling because that would mean that God’s prophetic plan is unfolding before our eyes.
Hi Wayne, in the Old Testament there are many prophecies regarding Jesus, some as a suffering Messiah who will be cut off, and another Messiah that comes as a mighty King to reign and rule the world! The fact most of the Jews couldn’t discern that the Messiah was coming twice has led to their continued blindness. Likewise I see two scenarios for end times. There are countless verses that talk about being ready, that He will come at time you think not .. a bride waiting for her bridegroom to come and take her to his fathers house for a wedding feast .. Like a thief in the night. Two women working, one taken, the other left. Yet there are many other verses that talk about the chaos and utter destruction that is happening on the earth, so much so that God says if He didnt intervene no life would be spared. These two totally different scenarios that sound like a contradiction. It makes me realize this catching up in the air, bride and bridegroom, thief in the night, is not the same as the Lord coming in glory with all His saints to enter into this battle where the world is in turmoil and the whole world is coming against Israel. It’s been those times that I doubted the rapture that God has shown me these seeming discrepancies. Jesus also said it will be like the times of Noah, life going along as usual then sudden destruction, but God spares Noah and his family. He has “lifted them away” before the destruction. Sodom, same thing, He spares His people before the the cities are destroyed. That is “the blessed hope” that Paul speaks of. Imagine all these Christians and children disappearing from the earth and the fear and calamity that will be happening. All those people we have shared end time verses with. They will remember and many many will come to believe in Jesus. I believe these will be the martyred Christians that come out of the tribulation referenced in Revelation. Meanwhile the bride of Christ is enjoying her wedding feast in heaven with her bridegroom in His Fathers house. Until the time we go with our King back to earth will He will crush the enemy with the brightness of His coming and will step in the mount of Olives that split in two with fountains that flow and heal the earth and we live our democratic life with our Jesus ruling and reigning in Peace and Glory. AMEN!
Lol Not democratic .. That was supposed to be edenic. Lol.
Jan, thank you for sharing, but just so you know where I am coming from, I was weaned on pre-trib. in a church that unlike most churches, seriously studied prophecy. I accepted it hook line and sinker for years until I started really studying it without a pre-trib commentary as my guide, and then I started seeing a lot of verses that contradicted it. I have found that staunch pre-tribbers are not open to really accepting anything else, because anything else is extremely scary. So I am not going to try to convince you otherwise, but I do want to share some things to make you at least ponder, to see if you can deal with the problems presented below.
First of all, most people who do believe in a Second Coming and millennium are pre-tribbers. So, if God knew that would be the case, and that is not when He is coming, would He not say numerous times 1) to not be deceived and 2) that He will be coming at a time when you are not expecting it? For you are not expecting it to be after the tribulation, are you. Neither are the majority of Christians. What do you think will happen to the faith of so many who are so completely convinced that Christ will not let them suffer Satan’s persecution when it begins to happen and they have not been removed as expected? Will they know when to look for it then?
Next, when you quote that Christ will come as a thief in the night, I am assuming you are quoting 1 Thess. 5:2 “For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.” The problem is, pre-trib always stops at that verse, but if you look two verses further down, you see this, ” But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.” Christians are NOT supposed to be overtaken as a thief in the night. Just unbelievers or those Christians who have not studied and therefore do not know when to expect Him when the time for a pre-trib rapture has passed and He has not come. We might not know the day or hour, but we can certainly know the season and will eventually know the year.
Note the parable of the 10 virgins is about 10 VIRGINS, meaning 10 Christians. Those who expected the Bridegroom to come early and not have to wait, did not have any extra oil. Those who expected to have to wait, brought some oil along, for they knew it would be a while.
One of the problems seems to be with definitions. I learned as I studied the entirety of Scriptures that God NEVER equates tribulation as being His wrath. Nor does He call all of Daniel’s 70th week tribulation. That is a huge mistake that leads to error. Tribulation might be Satan’s wrath against God and us, but not God’s wrath. We are told to expect tribulation. In fact the Greek words for wrath and tribulation are totally different words with different meanings. Notice in Rev 12 that God says that Satan comes down with great wrath at the abomination of desolation when the great tribulation (which is the only tribulation) starts. It is Satan’s wrath that causes the persecution of Christians, for make no mistake, the ones suffering during the great tribulation are NOT the unbelievers. They have taken the mark and since they belong to Satan, he is not persecuting them. Think of that. During what you are calling God’s wrath or Day of the Lord, the only ones suffering are Christians. Again, one more time, Christians are the ones suffering during this time, not unbelievers, nor even the remnant Jews, for even the Woman (Israel) is protected for 1260 days in the wilderness.
Nowhere, nowhere in Scripture does God ever call Daniel’s entire 70th week the tribulation. That appellation has led many to assume things that are not so. There is only three mentions of tribulation having to do with this particular time, and they are all called the “great tribulation”. One is in Matthew 24, the second is in the letter to Thyatira in Rev. She is told she will be thrown into it, and the third is when the saints on the sea of glass come out of it. God cuts the great tribulation short of the 3 1/2 years for who? For the sake of the elect. Because they are being persecuted, and if it did not stop, there would be nobody left to be raptured. Also if the persecution of those who refuse the mark, but are not Christians is not stopped, (they are the elect as far as being the sheep who go into the millennium) they would also be killed and there would be nobody left alive to go into the millennium at all, for those having taken the mark will be sent to hell. What cuts it short? The sixth seal. At that point they will be too busy trying to survive the events that transpire from this point on, that they will not be bothering to persecute God’s people anymore. That does not mean that antichrist’s reign ends, quite the contrary, he goes right up until Christ’s return, but his ability to kill God’s people is curtailed somewhat.
In all of the Old and New Testament, it is indicated that the Day of the Lord (God’s wrath) always is preceded by (or if you prefer comes AFTER) the sun going dark and the moon going dark/turning to blood, the stars falling, great earthquakes, the sky is rolled up like a scroll, etc. This simultaneous double eclipse (that is what is being described) along with the other descriptions of what is occurring would only appear scientifically to happen when a celestial body foreign to our regular orbit comes into our area and makes a close fly-by of earth (or as in the case of what appears to follow in the trumpet judgments, might also drop some debris to hit us). Of course a fly-by like that would also calls meteors, tremendous earthquakes, etc. That would mean, since this describes the sixth seal perfectly, that the Day of the Lord can only start at some point AFTER those celestial signs and events, therefore God’s wrath cannot start before the sixth seal. It must begin some time after it. And since those same signs occur AFTER the great tribulation is cut short, according to Matthew, it would seem that when Christ says He will come and gather His elect some time after those signs, that where He does that is the rapture, for the Day of the Lord is kicked off with the resurrection and rapture, as we are not appointed to wrath, which heaven declares comes after the last trumpet Rev. 11:15-18, when the Bema Seat (rewarding the prophets and saints) occurs.
Some problems with the rapture occurring when John goes up to heaven is 1) Where theologically does John ever represent the church that he should do so here? 2) if the church is in heaven, why does he not see them there? They are conspicuous by their absence. 3) why, if the seals are God’s wrath, is the fifth seal only aimed at Christians and not punishing unbelievers? For that matter as I said before, why aren’t unbelievers being punished at all during the great tribulation if it is God’s wrath? I thought that was the whole point of God’s wrath. 4) Why do the martyrs in that seal ask God when He is going to being getting His vengeance, if His vengeance has already begun long before this? These are matters not to be ignored, as far as I am concerned.
It is said that the church is not seen after chapter 4. Well 1) where are they when John describes what he sees in heaven and 2) who are the saints that are mentioned several times after that? Last time I looked the “elect” and “saints” are the Church, are they not? There are not two Churches are there? I’ve never seen that indicated in the Scriptures. There is one “elect” and one “saints” that comprise the Church. They appear under the altar in the fifth seal and on the sea of glass for starters. So the Church is seen after chapter 4. It’s the only time the church IS seen in heaven by John to that point.
What is the “mystery” that is finished? Is it not the Church, or at the very least the rapture of the Church? If Christ says that the “mystery” is finished after the sixth trumpet judgment (chapt.10) then is that not when the Church is raptured?
And if Paul says the rapture occurs at the last trump, does he not mean the last trump? And do not say that Paul didn’t know what John was going to write. WHO is the real author of Scriptures? Daniel was also told to write things that he did not understand. And Paul did imply that maybe he was the one that God took to the third heaven to show him things. How do we know Paul was not shown this? Maybe that is why he said what he did. It was a neon sign pointing us to the timing of the rapture. At the last and seventh trump, the mystery of God is finished, the dead saints and prophets are rewarded, and the wrath of God is announced as commencing. Is that not what happens at the time of the rapture ? It is also the Second Coming.
Everyone says that Israel will be saved during Daniel’s 70th week, but that is not what the Bible says. It says in Romans 11:25-26 that Israel will be blind UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles comes in (the Church is complete) and only then will all Israel be saved. According to Rev. 11:1-2, the Gentiles will tread down Jerusalem and the temple courtyard for 42 months. According to Luke 21:24, Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles from the time of the abomination of desolation until the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled. (We already know that will be 42 months.) If you put those three verses together it tells us that Israel will be blind until the time of the Gentiles (which ends 42 months after the abomination) is fulfilled. That would coincide with Christ’s Second Coming.
If you look at the reference to the time of Jacob’s trouble, you will see that it is linked to the Day of the Lord, which was already shown to occur after those celestial signs and is also shown to begin at the seventh trumpet. The vials are called God’s wrath. This is the time of Jacob’s trouble, (when their eyes are opened) for unlike the Church, they are NOT taken out of it, and their 1260 days of protection are over. They must endure and survive this. And in Rev. 1:7 and Zech. 12:10 it indicates that when Israel sees their Messiah (at the Second Coming) when all eyes see Him (no secret rapture it will be very visible), then they will mourn for Him when they look upon Him whom they have pierced.
Now you may be able to set aside all these problems as irrelevant, and that is fine if you wish to, but I cannot, for I like to reconcile all of Scripture and these simply do not reconcile to a pre-trib rapture. And when you think about it, the only reason a pre-trib is taught is because “we are not appointed to wrath”and they have erroneously assumed the entire 70th week is God’s wrath, but clearly God’s wrath does not begin until the seventh trumpet. Just because we might be martyred, is no reason for God to take us out, for He has not removed all the martyrs from that type of death since Christ’s death. Antichrist can only kill our bodies. And God has told us to not fear him who can kill the body, right? The Church falls away into great apostasy (and yes the falling away spoken of in 2 Thess. 2 means falling away from doctrines, not from the planet, check your Strong’s concordance for the meaning of “apostosia”) and it needs some purging. In fact God tells us both in Daniel and Revelation that He is deliberately turning the saints over to the beast. Peter did tell us that judgment must begin with the House of God and if we partake of Christ’s sufferings, we will be glad “when His glory shall be revealed (2nd Coming).” God bless.
I went out and bought six lamps, several gallons of kerosene, and a few feet of wick after reading this. Very well put.
Ok Connie, as usual with you, that is a lot! I was raised on Pre-trib as well. I’m trying to reconcile new thoughts on scripture with old teaching right now, mainly points you bring up above. Not saying who is right, but I will say after drifting away a little, God has been at times, forcefully yanking me back. During this, I have been getting, and I’m not saying Prophecy, I really don’t know much about it, so I will go with “ideas” in my head that I have never had before. One was of, I know it was, of CHRISTIANs, hiding like Anne Frank in attics, Christians hiding and trying to hear news reports on an old radio. I know this probably sounds crazy, I’m not sure it isn’t, but it has made me think the Pre-Trib theory could be wrong. And, of course, I could be wrong, lol. I’m going to have to spend sometime on each one of your points- thank you for being so thorough- verses and all; also, I have really been enjoying your blog!!!
For the record, that doesn’t sound crazy at all to me. Reminds me of Luke 11:5-13 and Prov. 2:1-11. Can’t comment on whether it’s prophecy or not, but it definitely doesn’t sound crazy.
Thank you Watchman! I always belonged to a Church that was more preaching on a topic, usually marriage, not just the Word. I think I may have been mislead on some things as since these “ideas” shall we say have been happening, I have been led, loud and clear, to the Bible. In fact, I don’t think I’m supposed to be reading anything else, and I love to read, but I have to say it has not been hard to give up other books. That is why I’m so appreciative to Wayne and others for your insight.
I am not a new Christian, but in some ways I do feel that way. Because the call has been so strong on me, I feel concern for those of us that aren’t feeling/sensing anything. What I’m trying to say is that with each day I feel/hear the Lord telling me the time is close- sometimes it feels like a crushing weight on my heart. I can hardly watch the news- its all so evil- all I end up doing is crying and praying. I am so frustrated with what I see happening. I don’t understand some of my Brothers and Sisters and their whole hearted adoption of this rebellion. Rev. always terrified me, I’ll admit, but now that we are here, I am at Peace. I am still at Peace when I feel like I know it may not be a Pre-Trib rapture.
Revelation and Bible prophecy always scared me as a child. I actually tried to stay away from my dad’s room whenever possible because it was full of Bible prophecy study material. I felt the call as a teenager to study the subject matter, and when I submitted to the calling Revelation no longer became scary to me and became much easier to understand. The idea that I could die someday for my beliefs no longer scared me. No more fear. No nightmares. The Lord took that fear away.
Perhaps the Lord has a purpose for you Lauren in warning people since you are feeling the call and gaining peace over the subject matter.
What you just said, how you described how you came to be at peace over revelations- that is exactly right. God has taken away my fear over it. I’m just so heartbroken over all the unsuspecting people! Even Cristians I know. People seem so willfully blind, even those that believe seem like they doubt the Word of God.
Unfortunately, many people will be caught off guard by what will transpire in the future. This article was written in reaction to what was taught at my church. I know of only one other person at my church that views things similar to me.
Thank you Lauren. Keep studying.
Amen to that. I wish more Christians felt that way.
It doesn’t get any more exciting than the period we’re entering as far as I’m concerned.
thank you for this post. I feel there is such a small sect of people that do not believe in the pre trib rapture and it’s important to bring biblical truths to light. So many of my brothers and sisters in Christ do not think the topic is pertinent “since we won’t be here” and I think it is a great deception the enemy has used to worm into the church. I appreciate your study of the word to share these insights.
Thanks Brittny
I don’t know the beliefs of everyone at my church, but I suspect I am in the extreme minority on this issue. I know some people who have that mindset of “we won’t be here” and they find it extremely comforting-almost to the point where I greatly hesitate to challenge their mindset because it would impact them psychologically. Overall I agree that only a small percentage of people believe that Christians will face the Antichrist and his persecution.
I’m going to say that I support your points of argument here. And I have always since I was small believed that I would be living here when the antichrist rises to power. And also when his idenity is revealed as well. But some will say that the persecution of the saints by the antichrist spirit has already begun through the beheading of Christians by ISIS. That is why we can read of the vision John received about heaven and the alter of God from where he heard the slain Christians crying out How long must we wait until You avenge those who spilled our blood for our testamony of Jesus Christ? I think this whole rapture thing is a way for church leaders to give the masses a sugar coated message making it easier for them to increase the numbers in their congregation. I’ve tried countless times to try and find support in Scripture and have never yet been able to understand or accept their arguments.
I would be thankful if you could take the time to analise the Scripture passages that they continuelly use and do what you do so well: Make a logical analysis of them in a preciding order so it will be easier for me to fully grasp this topic. Because I haven’t been able to fully grasp this on my own. And I would like very much to be able to do so and support it as well.
I believe the current persecution of Christians is not even close to what it will be like in the future. Since you’re new to this site here is an article on the future persecution of the Antichrist’s enemies:
https://www.prophecyproof.org/severity-persecution-great-tribulation/
I’m not sure how long you’ve studied the topic of the Rapture or Bible Prophecy, but there are multiple positions that exist. Pre-Trib is the most popular position taught by churches today. There’s also Mid-Trib, Pre-Wrath, and Post-Trib. I’ve realized as I’ve studied Bible prophecy that just because something is popular doesn’t mean it’s right. If you can’t find sufficient scriptural support to accept their arguments then they are probably not right.
Thanks Wayne for the link you’ve given. I’ll check it out later today.I’ve read more than several articles and watched many videos about different interpretations of pre-, mid-, post-tribulation and finally no rapture. What I should have written more clearly is: how each position of interpretating the Scripture as supporting their own view can be shown to be contradicted by other passages. It’s the organisation of these arguments, with supporting scriptur and clearity in their chain of logic, that’s what I haven’t been able to do on my own. My own ability to organize a chain of logic based on scripture passages has been very much decreased due to a rare form of leukemia. And it’s not coming back.
If you could make an argument in opposition and opposing each of these three rapture views – supported by other scripture passages with a chain of logic – I would be very thankful.
1Thess 4:26,17 Verse 16–“For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel,and with the trump of God:and the dead in Christ shall rise first; ” Notice (trump)This being the 7th trump of Revelation,that when the angel sounds the 7th trump,this is when Christ Jesus comes in His second coming. Notice (dead in Christ shall rise first) these being those that are spiritual dead to Christ. Verse 17–“Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and sonshall we ever be with the Lord ” Notice that the spiritual dead in Christ shall rise first,then we which are alive,this is spiritual alive and (remain) You know what this means, they that endure to the end shall be saved,this being to endure to the end of the tribulation shall be saved.Notice (clouds) this being the cloud of witnesses that come with the Lord at His second coming.Notice (air) this being translated in Hebrew means= ruach, which means=Spirit, Therefore to meet the Lord in the Spirit. Notice disciple Paul had written in 1Cor 15:51,52 Verse 51-“Behold I shew you a mystery:we shall not all sleep,but we shall be changed.In a moment,in the twinkling of an eye,at the last trump,for the trump shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible,and we shall be changed ” Notice (changed) This being changed from flesh and blood to the Spirit. Notice (at the last trump) this being the last trump to sound in Revelation the 7th trump to sound that brings about the Lord’s second coming to earth.Notice (the dead shall be raised incorruptible) these being the spiritual dead, Please note that in scripture it is written that God is not the God of the dead but of the living.that no one is dead to God but alive to God,also those that are spiritual dead unto the Lord will receive their reward,as it is written -“He that is unjust,let him be unjust still,and he which is filthy,let him be filthy still,and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still,and he that is Holy,let him be Holy still.And behold,I come quickly:and my reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work shall be” Revelation 22:11,12.
Wayne Croley that is right,just because something is popular does not mean its right.You know among the popular majority crucified Christ Jesus, and it was only among a few that knew that Christ Jesus was the true Messiah sent from God. Therefore just because the popular majority will say something to be right, does not mean it is right as you can see above.
Your eschatology is not sound. I know you mean well but wittingly or unwittingly teaching corrupt interpretation leads to the same result. Another point for Satan.
Wayne’s research and interpretation of things is not corrupt. It’s well thought out and logical. What the preeminent teaching on eschatology is out there, is what is corrupt. It’s leading people to think they won’t have to go through the tribulation and therefore they are not ready to die for their faith.Now that’s a point for Satan.
My eschatology doesn’t make a sound when it hits the ground, so I guess you’re right in a way!
My brother. I don’t know you before but I want you to know that the rapture is real. God has given hundreds of visions and dreams to countless people.I am one of those that saw the rapture vision. Thanks. Always on facebook. CHARLES CAMPBELL
Where do Christians get the idea that they will be spared the tribulation scriptural ou or out of contract scripturally?
It’s a long story Yvonne… From a psychological standpoint it makes sense for the idea that Christians will be spared from the Antichrist to be the most popular since it’s the most comforting scenario for most people. The idea that Christians might see the Antichrist terrifies some people.
I to had heard that Christians will be spared from the Antichrist that we would be lifted up before that day. I enjoyed reading the points that you brought out from studying the scriptures.
Yvonne,not all Christians believe in the rapture,as I am Christians and see nothing in the rapture,but those that do believe in the rapture are being deceived. And they don’t even know that they are being deceived. They follow the teachings of man’s,but if you hear them,they will say,we follow the teachings of God’s.You know in the book of Ezekiel 13:20 “Wherefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly; and I will tear them from your arms, and let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly” Notice (pillows) meaning = teachings, Notice (hunt) meaning = deceive, Notice that the Lord God is against those that teach people and deceive people they will fly away to save their souls, have you ever heard of the fly away doctrine, being the rapture fly away Doctrine? God is against those that teach His children they are going to fly (rapture) out to save their souls.
Dean, too many people make the mistake of associating the rapture with a pre-trib rapture, which is not Scriptural. However a rapture at the time of the Second Coming is Scriptural. Paul describes it in 1 Thess. 4:16-17 “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
This is the event which Christ described in Matt. 24:30-31 “And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” and again in Revelation 14:14-14-16 “And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.”
Paul tells us that at this event we will be caught up in the air, after the resurrected saints are, to meet Christ IN THE AIR. That is what the rapture is, meeting Christ in the air. The timing of it is designated by various groups by a prefix such as pre-, mid-, or post-, and each one has a different version of the events that follow said catching up in the air, but the timing and events that occur after are not the rapture event itself. They are merely the events that occur before or after the rapture. The rapture is merely meeting Christ in the air, the “harpazo” (the Greek term for being caught up) and clearly Scripture says we will do that. Just because you do not adhere to someone’s timing or version of it does not render it non-existent.
Connie,Let’s start with 1Thess 4:16,17 Verse 16-“For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel,and with the trump of God:and the dead in Christ shall rise first” Verse 17-“Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:and so shall we ever be with the Lord” Notice (remain) this being those that remain after the tribulation, Notice (clouds) this being the saints, that are in white robes,which shall appear as clouds in the heaven above.Notice (air) this being translation from the Greek stands to mean (rauch) which means (Spirit) Therefore to meet the Lord in the Spirit, Note that in 1Cor 15:51,52 Verse 51-“Behold, I will shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed ” Verse 52-“In a moment,in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump:for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed ” Notice we shall be changed from the flesh and blood body to that of the Spirit in a moment in the twinkling of an eye,to meet the Lord in the Spirit. In Matthew 24 Notice Christ Jesus the Lord hath said about His coming, Verse 29-“Immediately after the tribulation of those days” Verse 30-“And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven ” Notice Christ Jesus did not say, before the tribulation nor in the middle of the tribulation, but Immediately after the tribulation then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven. In the rapture theory it has Christ Jesus coming before the tribulation, But however this is not what Christ Jesus hath said. Christ Jesus said Immediately after the tribulation,then shall appear the sign of the Son of man.You know the teachings of man’s contradicts what Christ Jesus the Lord hath said.Connie you said “just because you do not adhere to someone’s timing or version of it,does not render it non-existant” it is non-existant if Christ Jesus the Lord has not spoken it,The Lord Christ Jesus said in Matthew 24:29,30 Immediately after the tribulation, then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven. Christ Jesus did not say before the tribulation nor in the middle of the tribulation, But after the tribulation of those days, then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven.
Dean, Is it because I am a woman so men don’t think I can possibly understand this stuff? Sometimes I wonder if people really read and understand what I say, for you seemed to have completely missed that 1) I don’t believe in a pre-trib rapture, I believe that it occurs at the Second Coming and 2) you can be caught up to meet the Lord in the air and changed into your glorified body at that time and it is still classified as a “rapture” because being “caught up” or “harpazo” simply means to be caught up. Paul never puts it before the tribulation.
You are mistaking the pre-trib rapture theory for any rapture theory. I believe in the last trump/Second Coming rapture theory. Just as Christ described in Matt.24, just as Paul described in Thess. and just as John described in Rev. AT THE SECOND COMING. AFTER THE TRIBULATION. BEFORE THE WRATH OF GOD. Can you hear me now? That is why they are caught up to meet the Lord, to be off earth while the wrath is poured out.
So just to reiterate, when Paul says that the dead in Christ shall rise (at the last trump/Second Coming) and then those who remain (after the tribulation) will be changed (given their glorified bodies) in the twinkling of an eye, and shall be caught up to meet Christ in the clouds (the air or atmosphere about the ground) in the air, that is exactly what it means. However you are free to believe whatever you want. Just as pre-tribbers spiritualize verses to make their theory work, you are free to do the same. I take the Scriptures much more literally. When it says “caught up”, I believe it means to be caught up, (“harpazo” – to catch up or take away). When it says “clouds” (“nephele” – literal clouds) and all the other verses which use this word refer to literal clouds, I believe it is literal clouds not white garments. (The only use of cloud as a metaphor is the word “nephos”). When it says “in the air” (“aer” – the air that comes from respiration, not the spirit as you said) and other verses talk about throwing dust in the “aer”, or speaking into the “aer” or the sun and the “aer” were darkened, or God pours out the vials into the “aer” for example, I take it to mean the atmosphere air which we breathe, for that seems to be what it means. I do believe we will meet Him in the spirit, but it will be in the clouds in the air in our glorified bodies.I don’t force a spiritual interpretation on God’s Word when face value literal interpretation works. Christ may not have used the word “rapture” or “harpazo” but Paul did, and all Scripture is inspired by God. You have to put all the pieces together not take them separately.
Connie, it hurts your credibility when you add so many words to the verses. For example, in your 3rd paragraph, all the words you added in parenthesis are “added to” the word of God. They are words you added to God’s word in those passages. We are told not to do that! (Rev 22:18) We must let the Scriptures speak for themselves. When we see your added words, we cannot agree with your view. (Let God be true and every man a liar…Romans 3:4)
Amen. If I could like this 1000 times!!!! Connie, praying for you. Not so much even for your view, but for the tone which you correspond to others who don’t agree with you. Praying you are sincerely doing it in love!
It seems people always want an easy way of escaping. But as Christ says, what lead us to think we won’t be persecuted, if they persecuted and kill the Master? The servants are not greater than the lord. If they persecuted the lord, so do they will persecute the servants.
You perceive correctly that pre-Trib believers who “won’t be here” are comforted by those words, because that’s exactly what God tells us will happen after he describes the Rapture in 1 Thes 4. That “God hath not appointed us [the Church] to wrath” and that we can “comfort each other with these words” is profoundly reassuring. In Titus 2:12,13, after we’re told how to live in this present world, we’re not told to buckle up and prepare for the Tribulation or Antichrist, but to look forward to that “Blessed Hope” of Christ’s appearing.
After reading these hopeful verses, I do not believe that Christ would have any reason to take his Bride (the Church) into the Tribulation to honeymoon, and there is nothing whatsoever more for his Bride (the Church) to prove. Instead, I believe Jeremiah in chapter 30 where God says “I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah”…into that great day, “the time of Jacob’s Trouble.” The Tribulation is simply not a time for God to deal with or let Satan torment the Church, but to deal once and for all with Israel.
You believe that the great tribulation is God’s wrath. Does it ever occur to pre-tribbers (and I was brought up one) that the only people suffering during the great tribulation is God’s people? Christ specifically tells us that. He is telling His disciples (of which we should include ourselves if we are His) what will happen to them (His disciples) before He returns. Those who follow the antichrist and take the mark will not be suffering anything. Life will go on as usual for them during this time, until the tribulation is cut short for the rest of the events that must occur. So exactly how is it that if this is God’s wrath, it is only being poured out on His own people? Why is it that only they are suffering while the unbelievers suffer nothing? Does it not occur to all of you that there is something a little wrong with that scenario? Why are the martyrs in the fifth seal asking God when He is going to start taking vengeance (pour out His wrath), since they want some justice for having been killed, if He has already begun doing that long before? He tells them that He is not ready yet to start taking vengeance, because there are many more Christians yet to suffer. So if He isn’t pouring out His vengeance, then how can you call this the time of His wrath?
All of the O.T. prophecies clearly say that God’s wrath will not be poured out until after certain signs occur. Those signs are found after the great tribulation is cut short, according to Matthew 24. So if God’s wrath does not occur until well after the great tribulation is cut short, then by what right do Christians feel that they get taken out of the way? We are spared God’s wrath, but not persecution. How much more will you look for that blessed hope if you are suffering? And what more can the antichrist do to you than kill you? Christians have been killed for 2 millennia because of their faith, so why would you be spared if they weren’t? No difference in being killed by one antichrist than another. Dead is dead. Antichrist doesn’t punish his own, so the great tribulation will not hurt the world at large. It will only be aimed at God’s people, because Satan comes down having great wrath (Rev. 12) after being thrown out of heaven, and goes after God’s people. And God turns them over to Him, (because they need purging). It says so in Daniel and Revelation. Try reading the Scriptures with open eyes as to what they really say.
That passage has nothing to do with a PreTribrapture. It is talking about believers who have died in the Lord. The comfort is found in knowing that those alive will see their love ones again at the coming of Jesus, not in escaping suffering. The Church is appointed to tribulation and persecution. That is what it means to follow the Lamb wherever He goes. The PreTrib rapture doctrine is based on the heresy called Dispensationalism, which states that God has two different peoples, Jew and Gentiles, that He deals with differently, and has special preference for the Jew. The Church is just a temporary interruption in God’s dealings with fleshly Israel, His supposed chosen people.
Hi Wayne . The pre tribulation view is a lie. There’s going to be a mass falling away in the light of persecution . But has our Lord said ” those who endure till the end will be saved”. There are different opinions on this view but after all truth is singular not plural there’s going to be a lot of disappointed people. There’s too many leaders who ” tickle ears of their flocks ” as I heard a Paster say ” if you love them you would tell them the truth. …
For 1300 years, Christ’s Church knew exactly who the Antichrist is.
Today, Christians speculate about Obama, Prince Charles, etc..
How has the church become so blind during the last 200 years?
In 2 Thessalonians 2, Paul told the church that the ‘Son of Perdition’ would be revealed after the Roman Empire was taken out of the way, so the church witnessed the Antichrist rising into power and knew who it was in 500 A.D.
During the Thyatira church era, which occurred from 538-1514 A.D., people groups called the Waldenses, Albigenses, Vaudois, Bohemian Brethren, and Wycliffites, witnessed against the Antichrist beast, and they were killed for their testimony.
During the Sardis church era, which occurred from 1514-1798 A.D., the Protestant Reformers and great theologians such as John Calvin, Martin Luther, John Bunyan, John Foxe, John Wesley, Matthew Henry, Adam Clarke, and many others, testified about who was the Antichrist beast of Revelation, the Little Horn of Daniel, Mystery Babylon, and the Son of Perdition.
During the Philadelphia church era, which occurred from 1798-1900 A.D., people like Charles Finney, Charles Spurgeon, Adam Clarke, Phillip Mauro, and many others, identified the Antichrist.
To understand how Jesus prophetic words to the seven church eras have been fulfilled. Read The Seven Churches of Revelation
But today, Christians in the Laodecian church era don’t have a clue.
How is that possible?
Christians today don’t know for many reasons:
Most Christians don’t diligently study the Word of God, which gives a clear description of when the Antichrist would appear, what it would say, what it would do, etc.
Most Christians don’t know world history well enough to see how the Biblical prophecies about the Antichrist have been fulfilled.
Most Christians have never read the book of Daniel, so they just blindly trust what Pastors teach about it.
Most Christians have never studied the book of Revelation, even though Jesus promised that those who read it and follow it will be blessed.
Most Christians blindly trust Pastors because they’ve been to seminary.
And there’s the rub…
Most Pastors have been misled about prophecy fulfillment at seminary, because the enemy has infiltrated seminaries to corrupt their teachings.
Christians hear prophecy teachings from their Pastors and they blindly trust them.
Christians hear the prophecy teachings on radio and TV from popular Pastors like David Jeremiah, Chuck Swindoll and John MacArthur, and they blindly trust them.
Most believe the pope will be the false prophet, as he is the religious figure in all this. The antichrist is the political guy. The beast is not just a type of political system, it is an entity which comes out of the abyss or bottomless pit.
Rapture when it does Happen, doesnt prevent New Believers from accepting Jesus Christ even in the midst of the persecution and tribulation.
Even Pre Trib Rapture doesnt mean that Jesus Christ will stop calling and choosing His Lost Children.
Yes even during the time that the Anti Christ is revealed, some will accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. In fact i think Satan would be appalled to learn that the appearance of the Anti Christ actually pushed a group ofpeople into Believing the New Testament is real and that Jesus is the Messiah. Im talking about the Jews.
Wayne,
If Jesus was snatching people away before his return or returning twice, he would have told us. End of that discussion. But Somehow he must fulfill the remaining Fall Hebrew feasts. If the covenant with the many is made near sukkot, then 3.5 years later would be passover, unleaved bread, first fruits. A feast days for the false christ to declare himself God. 3.5 years later is sukkot, and the return of Jesus. 30 days later comes Atonement, his judgement on man. Next is Tabernacles, the millenium. Maybe a Sukkot in the future will be the covenant with the many
Kensme…at the Rapture we will meet Jesus “in the air”, not on earth. “Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” (1 Thessalonians 4:17)
To answer the question,Will Christians see the antichrist? First let’s discover who the antichrist is.In 2Thess 2:4″Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God,or that is worshipped;so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God,shewing himself that he is God” Let’s go to the book of Isaiah for the parallel to 2Thess 2:4, Isaiah 14:12-15,Verse 12-“How art thou fallen from.heaven, O Lucifer,Son of the morning!How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations” Notice (fallen from heaven) Christ Jesus said in the book of Luke 10:18″And He said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven” so here is the parallel to Isaiah 14:12, Isaiah 14:13″ For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God:I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation,in the sides of the north” Notice (stars) this being the angels of God, Notice also(I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north) the mount of the congregation, is the temple mount, which is on the north side of Jerusalem, which is also call Oliver,Acts 2:12″ Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Oliver,which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day’s journey ” Notice mount Oliver being the place where Christ Jesus ascended up into heaven from. Isaiah 14:14″ I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High” Notice (clouds) this being a cloud of angels that stand before God.Notice (I will be like the most High) this being the most High God, Notice verse’s 13_and 14 the parallel to 2Thess 2:4″ Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God,or that is worshipped:so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God” Notice (he as God sitteth in the temple of God) this being the temple mount of Jerusalem.which also in Isaiah 14:13 is called the mount of the congregation in the sides of the north of Jerusalem. Back to Isaiah 14:15 “Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell,to the sides of the pit” Notice that (he) will be brought down to (hell) For the parallel in Revelation 6:8 “And I looked,and behold a pale horse:and his name that sat on him was Death,and hell followed with him” the question here is,who is Death what is his name? Notice also hell,Remember back in Isaiah above verse 15 (hell) Notice in Revelation 6:8 that hell followed Death,let’s go to the book of Hebrews to find out who Death that hell followed him, Hebrews 2:14″ Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise took part of the same;that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death,that is, the devil” Notice another name for Satan the devil is also Death. Remeber back in Isaiah 14:15 (pit) in Revelation 20:1-2, “And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand” Notice (pit) same pit in Isaiah 14:15,Rev 20:2″And he laid hold on the dragon,that old serpent,which is the Devil,and Satan,and bound him a thousand years ” Notice the names that are given to Satan,Notice (old serpent) In the book of Genesis 3:1-3, this old serpent(Satan) which deceiveth Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden.In Ezekiel 28:13-19,Verse 13″ Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God” Notice here the parallel to Genesis 3:1-3, Ezekiel Verse 13″every previous stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz,and the diamond, the Beryl,the onyx,and the Jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold,the workmanship of thy tabrets and of pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created” Notice Satan was in the garden of Eden and that Satan was created. In the next verse 14 we’ll find out that Satan was an anointed Cherub that covereth. Verse 14 “Thou art the anointed Cherub that covereth; And I have sit thee so: thou wast upon the Holy mountain of God;thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire” Notice that Satan the anointed Cherub that covereth, Remeber the two Cherubs that Moses made that stood over the ark of the covenant and the Mercy seat in the middle,that was Satan’s position to stand over the Mercy seat before the throne of God.Also Notice above the stones of fire,these being the angels that stand before God. Back to Ezekiel 28:15″Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee” Notice again (created) Notice (till) this means that God did not know that Satan was going to sin (till) iniquity was found in Him. Notice (iniquity) the translation to this means (lawless) in scripture another name for Satan is ( the lawless one) As you see and read Satan has many names that God has given him. Such as,devil,death,man of sin,Son of perdition, antichrist, serpent,lawless one,the beast,thru out the scriptures. Notice in 1Cor 15:55-56,”O death,where is thy sting,O grave,where thy victory ” Who do you suppose death is here? Remeber that death is another name for Satan.Verse 56″The sting of death is sin:and the strength of sin is the law” (The sting of Satan is sin) (O Satan where is thy sting). So the question is,Will Christians see the antichrist, yes Christians will see the antichrist,For the antichrist is Satan himself. of course people believe that they will be raptured out before he comes, but that is not what Christ Jesus the Lord hast said in Matthew 24:29-30. “immediately after the tribulation of those days,and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven” As you can see and read, not before the tribulation or in the middle, but Immediately after the tribulation.
Sorry about the typo in my post,it was to be,Mount Oliver and not Oliver,the ( T ) and ( R ) are very close together I hit the ( r ) by mistake sorry.
I don’t know why this is happing, about the typo it is to be Mount Olivet and not Oliver.sorry
The antichrist does not reveal his true identity to the world.God has already revealed the identity of the antichrist and the man of sin and the Son of perdition, and who the beast that comes out of the earth in Revelation 13:11, and the angel is that comes out of the bottomless pit, God has already revealed them to His Elect people to know who they are in the book of Revelation and Isaiah,Ezekiel, Daniel, Jeremiah, disciple Paul.and even the Lord Jesus has revealed them in,Matthew,Mark and Luke.
Brittany,that is right to bring biblical truths to the light.alot of Christians are being taught that Christ Jesus the Lord will come before the tribulation or in the middle of the tribulation. But however this is not what Christ Jesus hath said in Matthew 24:29,30, Notice Verse 29-“Immediately after the tribulation of those days ” Verse 30-“Then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven ” Therefore you have the Lord Christ Jesus telling when He shall come,Immediately after the tribulation of those days, then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven.
That is when He comes to begin the millennial reign. Not the rapture.
Yes, it IS when He will start His reign. It is also when HE said He will gather His ELECT. Are you one of His elect? Then it refers to you. Then THAT is when those who REMAIN alive (after most have been killed in the tribulation) can expect to be gathered. If anybody should know when it happens, He should. He said of that time that nobody would know the day or hour. Since everybody agrees that that phrase about the day and hour refers to the rapture, and it also clearly and grammatically refers back to the verses of His Coming and gathering the elect after the tribulation in Matt. 24, then logically they are one in the same. Just like in 2 Thess. 2 where it says Now we beseech you, brethren, by the COMING (2nd) of our Lord Jesus Christ, AND (accompanied) by our GATHERING together UNTO him. Again the order is the Coming (2nd) and THEN our (the elect) being gathered. Both passages agree in the order of events. Just have to read it the way it is written and it is very clear.
Hi Connie. Interesting take on end of days scenario. Look down this thread for JAN and let me know your thoughts. I would be interested in hearing your opinion!
But really if the LORD says NO!! man knows the DAY or the HOUR who’s to say rather or not we shall be here or not be here…I believe the CHURCH will be greatly DECEIVED MANY BECAUSE THEIR NOT LOOKING FOR THE ANTICHRIST…JUST JESUS CHRIST RETURN… THAT’S WHEN DECEPTION…WILL TAKE PLACE AND MANY DON’T EVEN STUDY THE BIBLE PICK IT UP ONLY ON SUNDAY… CODEPENDENTS ON THE PASTOR…and some of them are not even teaching on the ANTICHRIST…BADLY DECEIVED….JUST CHRIST RETURN
Jesus said in Matthew 24:15:
15 “So when you see STANDING in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand…
Let’s read what Daniel 11:31 tells about the abomination that causes desolation whom Jesus referred to:
31 “His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will SET UP the abomination that causes desolation. 32 With flattery he will corrupt those who have violated the covenant, but the people who know their God will firmly resist him.
Let’s read also what Jesus tells about the abomination that cause desolation in Rev. 13:14-15:
14 Because of the signs it was given power to perform on behalf of the first beast, it deceived the inhabitants of the earth. It ordered them to SET UP an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived. 15 The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed.
THIS IS WHAT WE SHOULD WATCH OUT AND LOOK FOR IF WE WANT TO KNOW WHEN THE GREAT TRIBULATION WILL START. WHATEVER SUPERNATURAL AND MIRACULOUS EVENTS THAT PRECEDES THIS SHOULD BE GIVEN CAREFUL THOUGHT AND MUCH DISCERNMENT.
Take heed on Jesus’ warning. He could have not mentioned this things if it were not that important for His Elect’s sake. Who then are the Elect? Study all of Peter and Paul’s references on the Elect. Pretribbers had their own understanding of who the Elect are in Matthew 24 so to conveniently say that they are the left behinds.
guys, everyone will be affected by the beast. And when the beast comes, you will all know if you are still alive. If you have the gift, you will feel the beast when it arrives. That is all I can say.
The biggest mistake Church or the body of Christ has been doing all throughout because they didn’t understand the God’s plan for Jews and the Church. The word Apostasy is taken from the Greek word “Apostacia” which means departing. So, body of Christ won’t experience tribulation. They would be caught up. People who will accept the Lord after tribulation will be the tribulation saints. They were the left behind people and will go through tribulation. They would be great in numbers. At the mid trib, Jews will flee to the mountains when antichrist or son of perdition reveals and causes abomination to desolate as mentioned by prophet Daniel. After tribulation Jesus will come down to earth riding on a horse as a lion of Judah with all the raptured saints and the saints who were killed during tribulation.
Also, people need to do church study to understand Jews and the Church. People need to understand the parables of wedding feast. I can tell you that Lord Jesus has prepared the feast for us. Everything is ready. Horses are getting ready for the war. Angels are ready to descend. Stage is beautifully set. Our Lord is waiting for everybody to be spiritually ready because he doesn’t want anybody to be left behind. He nicely shared the story of 10 virgin’s. Always explained the events with parables. If you don’t understand Jewish culture, you want understand the parables “Nobody knows the day and the hour”.
You need to double check what people tell you. Sometimes they will give you a half truth to support their theories. If you look up the word “apostasia” you will find that the definition is “defection from truth”. It is a departing, but a departing from truth, not a leaving from a physical place. They conveniently left that part out. Another form of the word means “divorce.” That is why they word “apostasy” in English means to “depart from the truth.” Because it is the same word.
Hi Connie, curious. Have you ever been accused of the spirit/tone by which you relay a message etc. is one of anger? Connie, this is just a simple question. I’m not here for a thesis on the matter, just curious as to if you have ever been told this in some way, shape or form?
I have been told that I am honest and blunt in my speech. It is just the way I am. I have tried to modify my way of speaking, having been told this, but it does not come naturally to talk like a politician to me, I just go right to the point. If I’m dealing with facts, I don’t see the need to do anything but relay the facts. It isn’t meant to be nasty, although some might see it that way. This is a problem with writing. You can’t hear my tone, only see the words. I am also extremely passionate, which some see as anger, but those who know me best, just realize this is my unfortunate way. It is like talking to my son, (now grown) who is on the autism spectrum. He takes things way too literally, so I had to be very specific how I spoke to him and not add a lot of extra flowery speech. By nature I am just blunt which worked with my son. Kind of like Dr. Brennan on the TV show Bones. I don’t know maybe I am a little autistic too. I don’t say things to be nasty, it just comes out without having a lot of cotton surrounding it. I have been told that when I use a southern accent and say, “Bless your heart” with everything that I can say exactly the same thing only it isn’t received in the same way. What do you think? Should I start everything I say with “Bless your heart” and some other southern phrases to soften the blow? And btw, I don’t mind people being honest with me, as you just were. So it’s not that I can’t take it, but dish it out.
Bless your heart, if makes you feel any better, I think I will stop commenting here or anywhere. As I see more and more Christians, bless their hearts, turn to fables and doctrines of demons because they have no idea what the Bible says, God bless ’em, I find I’m more and more inclined to just let them follow whatever they want to believe, as they have no desire to hear God’s true Word, poor thangs. In the past couple of weeks I have had a friend, bless her heart, suddenly decide that the earth is flat, that the N.T. books are only applicable to Gentile Christians if they were written by either Paul or Luke, that the rest of the N.T. books are strictly for the Jews, and my brother and his wife, bless their hearts, have decided that there is no hell. I reckon everybody gets into heaven if not before death, then a little time of punishment will bring them around after death and then they will enter heaven’s gates, bless their bad little hearts. I reckon this is only the latest in a long line of seeing people believe lies, and quite honestly I am fixed to be tired of it all. I reckon I will let people believe whatever lies they want and suffer the consequences of that, bless their hearts, and since as you have pointed out, God bless you, my approach seems so insensitive or angry or non-Christian, I’m sure it will be a welcome turn of events to many, bless their itching little ears.
Your comments have always been valued Connie. A few might complain, but the truth needs to be heard. (FYI, I have absolutely no problem with your tone or style). How people respond is up to them. They can’t say they weren’t warned.
HI Connie, you asked the following: “What do you think? Should I start everything I say with “Bless your heart” and some other southern phrases to soften the blow?” Before I answer that question, may I ask you to provide some clarity first? You made the above statement regarding my comment: “and since as you have pointed out, God bless you, my approach seems so insensitive or angry or non-Christian.” Perhaps I’m missing it, but can you direct me to the place where I stated that your approach seems non-Christian or insensitive?
I mean no offense, I’m sure you’re a very nice person, however I am going to be my usual blunt self here. It does not take a rocket scientist to read the less polite meaning behind these words, ” Have you ever been accused of the spirit/tone by which you relay a message etc. is one of anger? ” You imply through a question which you point out is “just a simple question” that I have a tone or quality which relays anger. You don’t have to state something outright for someone to get the jist of what you mean. Otherwise why ask it if you do not think it? It is what you think of me, so that formed the question. Easy deduction.
See this is the difference between how I say things and how other people do. By couching things in a question it appears that there is no accusation intended, but actually that is exactly how one receives the question and from experience with similar questions, it is exactly the way the question is usually meant to be received, as a chastisement at the very least. I’m not stupid. A question such as you posed comes across as an accusation or chastisement to the person being asked, albeit one shrouded as an innocent question. I can read between the lines as well as anybody. But by putting the thought as a question, it allows people the ability to deny that it was an accusation or meant in any derogatory way. People can claim innocence of the implication. They can feel vindicated that they have not done what you feel I do. I’ve seen people do this more times than I can possibly count. Not always to me, to others as well. People will ask questions that insinuate what they are afraid to say outright, thinking that somehow they are a better, more polite person for shrouding their thoughts in such a way and can get away with denying that which was actually meant. I am at least honest and forthright in my statements and don’t try to pretend it was anything other than what it is.
If you think a person feels a negative question or statement is less negative or obvious because it is insinuated rather than stated, you are greatly mistaken. There are some people (like my friends) who appreciate this open honesty, as they know that what they see is what they get, that I mean what I say, praise and correction alike, (which by the way makes my praise much more valuable to them as they trust it to be truthful and sincere) and they aren’t being stabbed in the back by a two-faced person who will say one thing to their face and another behind their back, or make snide insinuations with a smile on my face looking right at them while pretending that nothing nasty was meant.
I prefer open honesty in others myself. It can cut like a sword at times, yes, but I find that more useful in helping me to see my own faults or errors, in that open, blunt people tend to not have an attitude or motive attached, (although some people think there is, rather it is simply that is how they are) but they simply see most things as facts in black and white that either are correct or need correction. And then I also know that the compliment is actually sincere, not just put out there for whatever’s sake but not really meant to be sincere. I guess it is different strokes for different folks.
And you never did say what you think of my putting all those “Bless your hearts” in there. And just so you know, my closest friend is a southern gal and she is more sharp with her comments than even I am, but they are couched so nicely in those bless your hearts and other euphemisms. And she finds my utilizing those phrases amusing, not insulting, so please don’t ask me if I think I’m being politcally incorrect or insulting southern people when I use them. If it doesn’t bother my friend, I figure I’m okay, cause these southern gals know exactly why they use the phrases. It’s no secret.
As for answering the insensitive or un-Christian aspects, everyone seems to think that baldly stating facts is insensitive. That is merely a common reaction. As for the un-Christian part, being insensitive is believed to be unloving. Being unloving is being un-Christian, right? Hence it is easy to go from anger (which is un-Christian in people’s view) to insensitive and un-Christian. It is easy to go from one to the next without it having to be stated. Again, the way the questions are posed often tells more about the mindset of the questioner than they realize. hint – key words, “accuse, spirit, tone, anger”.
One more note. On other sites I only use my initials, and guess what. Everyone assumes I am a man, and I do not correct that misunderstanding. Isn’t that interesting? Do you want to know why? Because they do not take my “tone” to be anger. They read me as the way a man talks. How interesting. They do not see it as a spirit of, well whatever they label women’s spirits as being when they have the nerve to speak up and state things. They see my statements as coming from a place of logic (supposedly men are the logical ones) not anger (women are supposed to be emotional in their responses), and as an older person who is a scholar. I am never accused of the tone, the spirit, or otherwise when I am a man. I am simply accepted a man stating a fact or view. Might there be disagreement as to what the view is? Of course, but not in the same way as when I am identified as a woman. As a women, heaven help us, I am accused of all sorts of things, not the least being that I cannot possibly understand Scripture simply because I am a woman. You might want to think about that.
Lol, Connie, why in the world would I take offense to anything you are saying! Lol. You can only be Connie. You have “truly” made my day in that I now know what type of spirit I am dealing with! Thank you tremendously! Will be praying for you for real! p.s. I’m still hoping you can help me with my original question: Perhaps I’m missing it, but can you direct me to the place where I stated that your approach seems non-Christian or insensitive?
Mr. Wayne Croley, if you get a chance can you check out the site doctrine.org. There are two specific articles on 1 & 11 Thes. and an article on The Rapture. I would be very curious as to what you would say in response to the claims made in these articles. They address much of what this article speaks to as well as many of the comments. P.s. my apologies if you have already stumbled across this site.
My impression of those two articles is that the authors of that website are deeply in the Pre-Trib camp. Almost to the point of questioning a person’s Christianity if they disagree with the Pre-Trib viewpoint. That is deeply disturbing. I know of people who went from Pre-Trib to believing in another Rapture position like Pre-Wrath or Post-Trib. Their positions changed as a result of deep Bible study and prayer-not from a satanic plot to divide the church. My own position on the Rapture evolved from many years of independent Bible study.
I describe my full viewpoint on the Rapture and provide supporting Scripture in my book Prophecy Proof Insights of the End Times.
Yes, I found that disturbing as well, in regards to questioning a person’s Christianity! I myself am still in deep study regarding a lot of topics in the body of Christ. Does your book address his stance on the explanation of the much debated “wrath” vs. “tribulation” vs “Day of the Lord,” etc.?
I have three chapters of my book devoted specifically to the Rapture, including a breakdown of the different types of wrath (there’s more than one word for “wrath” in Greek and the distinction between those words is crucial). I have two chapters devoted to defining the Day of the Lord and its start time, including an overview of events that will transpire before it and during it. I also have a chapter devoted specifically to the great tribulation. My book is a comprehensive book about the end times, so it covers far more topics than just the topics you brought up.
Awesome! I will look into it! Just will help further my ammunition so to speak! Thanks much. Will definitely compare what you have with what I have learned thus far.
Thanks Tony.
Wayne, I will share this with you and “ALL” who it may help when I was studying this topic. I received the following statement one day when studying this and I believe it was from the the Lord. Statement: The body of Jesus Christ already suffered the wrath of God once, His “body” will not have to suffer His wrath again!” Now, I took that for what it was and just as he said it. I didn’t read into it other than the fact that even if I am persecuted that I am a part of His body, and wrath want be a part of my lot. Now whether or not “wrath” is the same as “tribulation” and on and on and on, I simply stuck with what the Holy Spirit revealed to me. Bottom line is, knowing that Jesus has claimed me will give me strength to get through ANYTHING!!!
OH Wayne, my apologies, does your book also address the Mid-Trib stance???
Sorry I didn’t see this earlier. It doesn’t address Mid-Trib directly because I focus on explaining why I believe the Rapture will take place at the time I believe Scripture indicates it will.
Perhaps if you reread the couple of comments I made, you will find your answer. But maybe not. People only see, hear, and understand what they want to, And the kind of spirit you are dealing with is one who sees that people are truly deceived in what they are believing, and it will lead them to not being ready for the horrible persecution and martyrdom that is coming down the pike for them. Everyone thinks Jesus doesn’t want a battered and bruised Bride. Wrong. That is exactly what He wants. One who will die for Him.
I equate my spirit to one that is seeing people lying on a train track, and I see the train coming and people think they are all well and good, that the train would NEVER run over them, and I am yelling “Get off the track. You’re going to get run over.” And they laugh and make fun of me, and call me various names, and they ignore me. If you saw something akin to this, would you really be sweet talking them into getting up and off the track as you see it barreling down on them, or would you be yelling at the top of your lungs, unconcerned as to how they viewed your yelling? That’s where I am. That is the spirit you are dealing with. God gave me instructions long ago. He didn’t say that I had to sweet talk people into seeing the truth, just that I had to present it. He also said that He would give me a forehead of flint, so that their mocking, insults, etc. wouldn’t bother me. And it doesn’t. The prophets that warned Israel that God’s judgment was about to fall on them weren’t exactly sweet talkers either. So I don’t care what people think of me. I only care that I do what God has warned me to do or else He will hold me responsible. I am a watcher on the wall and it is my job to yell that judgment is coming to Christians. That the false doctrines they are embracing will leave them bereft and confused when it all hits the fan. Whether you believe that or not is not my problem. I’ve done my job.
Lol, again Connie, can you please direct me to where I initially “stated” your approach seems non-christian or insensitive. You didn’t answer this, but only included what you “thought” I meant. If you can answer this question, I believe we can have a truly “fruitful” convo. Can you please direct me to where I “stated” (not what you inferred) your approach seems non-christian or insensitive? I believe this has yet to be answered by you. Waiting? Now I do say this in a rhetorical manner, but you do know what “stated” means correct?
Connie, I must admit that you have me amused however. I’m yet baffled how what I “stated” has you now interpreting what I actually believe! LOL. I am seriously amused. I promise if you can answer my initial question, you will have perhaps one of the more fruitful convos you’ve ever had and God himself will eventually have you saying Tony you are a true brother in Christ and I apologize! You’re funny! 🙂